Questions Submitted to Staff

[Brent]

All,

We had agreed that we would produce a consolidated list of budget-related questions for which we wanted more detail from Staff, and we agreed that I would submit these on behalf of the group so that we don't inundate staff with individual, and possibly duplicate/overlapping questions.

This forum topic will track the questions that have been submitted, and I will also post answers if/when I receive them.

Feel free to post additional questions you would like asked on this forum, or e-mail me, or bring them up at the meetings.

[Brent]

To: Scott Fogleman, Budget Director

Mr. Fogleman,

As you may know, Council member Michael Joyce recently
launched a Citizens Budget Review Committee. More than two
dozen Cary citizens have volunteered to participate, and we
have been making progress.

Our mission statement has been developed; it is: "This
volunteer citizen group will examine the Town budget
(2004/2005) in an objective manner and offer advisory input
to Cary Town Staff and Town Council about fiscal issues,
including revenue and spending priorities, individually and
through group consensus."

To help us reach conclusions, we have of course been
examining the FY '04 budget and we have developed some
questions. I have been asked to present the questions to
Town Staff on behalf of the group, so that (we hope) you
aren't peppered with questions from many individuals.

Two questions that I believe are in your realm are:

1. What has been cut or has been recommended to be cut from
the CIP, versus what was in the CIP in FY '04?

2. When will we be able to examine the FY '05 budget?

We would gratefully appreciate any assistance you can
provide in helping us to obtain these answers.

Thank you very much.

Brent A. Miller
On behalf of the Citizens Budget Review Committee

[Brent]

To: Tim Bailey, Director of Engineering
cc: Scott Fogleman, Budget Director

Mr. Bailey, (Mr. Fogleman also copied; see explanation that
follows),

As you may know, Council member Michael Joyce recently
launched a Citizens Budget Review Committee. More than two
dozen Cary citizens have volunteered to participate, and we
have been making progress.

Our mission statement has been developed; it is: "This
volunteer citizen group will examine the Town budget
(2004/2005) in an objective manner and offer advisory input
to Cary Town Staff and Town Council about fiscal issues,
including revenue and spending priorities, individually and
through group consensus."

To help us reach conclusions, we have of course been
examining the FY '04 budget and we have developed some
questions. I have been asked to present the questions to
Town Staff on behalf of the group, so that (we hope) you
aren't peppered with questions from many individuals.

Three questions that I believe you may be able to address
are (Mr. Fogelman is copied also, as some of these relate to
budget/fiscal issues, although they all are of the same
theme):

1. In the Town of Cary, how many miles of streets are
designated private?

2. How many thousand feet of sanitary sewer lines meet
state standards yet are considered substandard by the Town
of Cary, and thus considered “private” by the Town staff?

3. Are sewer fees collected from such "private" sewer lines
as descibed in item #2? What is the amount of such fees, and
how is this revenue spent?

We would gratefully appreciate any assistance you can
provide in helping us to obtain these answers.

Thank you very much.

Brent A. Miller
On behalf of the Citizens Budget Review Committee

[Brent]

To: Dick Moore, Traffic Engineer

Mr. Moore,

As you may know, Council member Michael Joyce recently
launched a Citizens Budget Review Committee. More than two
dozen Cary citizens have volunteered to participate, and we
have been making progress.

Our mission statement has been developed; it is: "This
volunteer citizen group will examine the Town budget
(2004/2005) in an objective manner and offer advisory input
to Cary Town Staff and Town Council about fiscal issues,
including revenue and spending priorities, individually and
through group consensus."

To help us reach conclusions, we have of course been
examining the FY '04 budget and we have developed some
questions. I have been asked to present the questions to
Town Staff on behalf of the group, so that (we hope) you
aren't peppered with questions from many individuals.

One question that I believe is in your realm is:

- What is the capacity of a 2-lane road (built to Town of
Cary standards) versus a 4-lane median-divided road (also
built to Town of Cary standards)?

We would gratefully appreciate any assistance you can
provide in helping us to obtain these answers.

Thank you very much.

Brent A. Miller
On behalf of the Citizens Budget Review Committee

[Brent]

To: Dick Moore, Traffic Engineer

Mr. Moore,

As you may know, Council member Michael Joyce recently
launched a Citizens Budget Review Committee. More than two
dozen Cary citizens have volunteered to participate, and we
have been making progress.

Our mission statement has been developed; it is: "This
volunteer citizen group will examine the Town budget
(2004/2005) in an objective manner and offer advisory input
to Cary Town Staff and Town Council about fiscal issues,
including revenue and spending priorities, individually and
through group consensus."

To help us reach conclusions, we have of course been
examining the FY '04 budget and we have developed some
questions. I have been asked to present the questions to
Town Staff on behalf of the group, so that (we hope) you
aren't peppered with questions from many individuals.

One question that I believe is in your realm is:

- What is the capacity of a 2-lane road (built to Town of
Cary standards) versus a 4-lane median-divided road (also
built to Town of Cary standards)?

We would gratefully appreciate any assistance you can
provide in helping us to obtain these answers.

Thank you very much.

Brent A. Miller
On behalf of the Citizens Budget Review Committee

Good afternoon Brent,

The Cary Comprehensive Transportation Plan provides the following street
capacity.

Left turns lanes may exist with or without median.

two lane road without left turns - 9000
two lane road with left turns - 12,000
four lane without left turns - 18,500
four lane with left turns - 24,900
six lane with left turns - 38,200

We hope this information is helpful.

C. Richard(Dick) Moore
Town Traffic Engineer
Engineering Department
Town of Cary
318 North Academy Street
Cary, North Carolina 27512-8005
919-462-3937
919-460-4935 fax
dick.moore@townofcary.org (Note: new e-mail address)

[Brent]

To: Tim Bailey, Director of Engineering
cc: Scott Fogleman, Budget Director

Mr. Bailey, (Mr. Fogleman also copied; see explanation that
follows),

As you may know, Council member Michael Joyce recently
launched a Citizens Budget Review Committee. More than two
dozen Cary citizens have volunteered to participate, and we
have been making progress.

Our mission statement has been developed; it is: "This
volunteer citizen group will examine the Town budget
(2004/2005) in an objective manner and offer advisory input
to Cary Town Staff and Town Council about fiscal issues,
including revenue and spending priorities, individually and
through group consensus."

To help us reach conclusions, we have of course been
examining the FY '04 budget and we have developed some
questions. I have been asked to present the questions to
Town Staff on behalf of the group, so that (we hope) you
aren't peppered with questions from many individuals.

Three questions that I believe you may be able to address
are (Mr. Fogelman is copied also, as some of these relate to
budget/fiscal issues, although they all are of the same
theme):

1. In the Town of Cary, how many miles of streets are
designated private?

2. How many thousand feet of sanitary sewer lines meet
state standards yet are considered substandard by the Town
of Cary, and thus considered “private” by the Town staff?

3. Are sewer fees collected from such "private" sewer lines
as descibed in item #2? What is the amount of such fees, and
how is this revenue spent?

We would gratefully appreciate any assistance you can
provide in helping us to obtain these answers.

Thank you very much.

Brent A. Miller
On behalf of the Citizens Budget Review Committee

1. 60.9 miles of private streets exist in Cary's Town Limits based on
Powell Bill data. This may not be completely accurate depending how a
private street is defined. For comparison 343.68 miles are Town maintained
and 118.65 are State maintained.

2. We do not have data on privately maintained sanitary sewer lines. We
keep data on 8 inch and larger Town maintained lines only.

3. Sewer fees and rates are collected from everyone on the same basis. The
primary cost for both impact fees and rates is for treatment capacity.

If you are suggesting that there is an inequity in the cost to sewer
customers, I don't believe a significant problem exists between a single
family home and a townhouse. I recently compared a townhouse community to
Preston Village. I don't remember the exact numbers but each maintains
about the same amount of private sewer line on private property per unit.
These are typically the same thing, a 4" PVC pipe with clean outs at
required intervals. Consider a Preston Village home where the property
owner maintains the line between the house and the street where the public
town maintained line is located which is approximately 70 feet. Higher
density developments may have less service line, your house appears to be
about 40 feet. Some homes have sewer to the rear of the lot depending on
topography and they can maintain a lot more service line. A townhouse may
have a couple of units collecting together and crossing common space in the
complex, but the total length of line per unit is about the same. The real
difference I see is who pays for maintenance. For single family homes the
homeowner is typically responsible. For a townhouse the HOA is typically
responsible for anything outside of the units.

Town maintained sewer systems in these neighborhoods would also increase
purchase prices and impact the design layout of the developments.

Many communities have water system that are private also. In Cary we want
to control all fire hydrants to improve our fire insurance rating (ISO) so
we have very few private water systems.

I hope this helps. Let me know if you need more information.

Tim Bailey, P.E.
Director of Engineering
Town of Cary
E-mail: tim.bailey@townofcary.org

[Brent]

To: Scott Fogleman, Budget Director

Mr. Fogleman,

As you may know, Council member Michael Joyce recently
launched a Citizens Budget Review Committee. More than two
dozen Cary citizens have volunteered to participate, and we
have been making progress.

Our mission statement has been developed; it is: "This
volunteer citizen group will examine the Town budget
(2004/2005) in an objective manner and offer advisory input
to Cary Town Staff and Town Council about fiscal issues,
including revenue and spending priorities, individually and
through group consensus."

To help us reach conclusions, we have of course been
examining the FY '04 budget and we have developed some
questions. I have been asked to present the questions to
Town Staff on behalf of the group, so that (we hope) you
aren't peppered with questions from many individuals.

Two questions that I believe are in your realm are:

1. What has been cut or has been recommended to be cut from
the CIP, versus what was in the CIP in FY '04?

2. When will we be able to examine the FY '05 budget?

We would gratefully appreciate any assistance you can
provide in helping us to obtain these answers.

Thank you very much.

Brent A. Miller
On behalf of the Citizens Budget Review Committee

Please see answers below.


1. What has been cut or has been recommended to be cut from
the CIP, versus what was in the CIP in FY '04?

We are continuing to work through these details. The current plan is to
have a Manager Recommended capital budget complete with those projects
selected for funding as well as an identification of those projects that
will not be recommended for funding available for review by interested
parties at the time of the capital worksession. This is currently
scheduled to take place on Wednesday May 12.


2. When will we be able to examine the FY '05 budget?

We are continuing to work through these details as well. The current plan
is to have the Manager's Recommended operating budget complete with those
programs and services selected for funding available for review by
interested parties at the time of the operating worksession. This is
currently scheduled to take place on Tuesday May 25.

Thank you very much for your patience as we continue to work through every
possible detail and include the best information available in the upcoming
budget.

Scott Fogleman
Town of Cary
Budget Director
316 North Academy Street
Cary, NC 27513
Phone (919) 462-3911
Fax (919) 460-4929
scott.fogleman@townofcary.org
www.townofcary.org

[dhyatt]

Let's see... - 3 sets of questions to staff and 3 sets of relatively worthless answers. I think we may need to come up with more precise questions since it now seems likely staff won't volunteer the information they know we're really looking for.

[Cathy]

Let's see... - 3 sets of questions to staff and 3 sets of relatively worthless answers. I think we may need to come up with more precise questions since it now seems likely staff won't volunteer the information they know we're really looking for.

And what's up with the defensive posture from Tim Bailey??

[Don]

Let's see... - 3 sets of questions to staff and 3 sets of relatively worthless answers. I think we may need to come up with more precise questions since it now seems likely staff won't volunteer the information they know we're really looking for.

And what's up with the defensive posture from Tim Bailey??

what was defensive about the reply? Am I missing something?

[Cathy]

Let's see... - 3 sets of questions to staff and 3 sets of relatively worthless answers. I think we may need to come up with more precise questions since it now seems likely staff won't volunteer the information they know we're really looking for.

And what's up with the defensive posture from Tim Bailey??

what was defensive about the reply? Am I missing something?

Bailey:
If you are suggesting that there is an inequity in the cost to sewer
customers, I don't believe a significant problem exists between a single
family home and a townhouse. I recently compared .......

???

[Don]

Let's see... - 3 sets of questions to staff and 3 sets of relatively worthless answers. I think we may need to come up with more precise questions since it now seems likely staff won't volunteer the information they know we're really looking for.

And what's up with the defensive posture from Tim Bailey??

what was defensive about the reply? Am I missing something?

Bailey:
If you are suggesting that there is an inequity in the cost to sewer
customers, I don't believe a significant problem exists between a single
family home and a townhouse. I recently compared .......

???

I read it as Tim trying to answer Brent's question by actually trying to figure out what Brent was getting at. seemed logical to me I guess.

[Brent]

OK, just a clarification...these aren't "Brent's" questions, they're the group's questions. The one to Tim Bailey came from Lynne Loots via e-mail. I think that she and her neighbors had already asked similar questions of Staff, without much success. I'm guessing that that is what Tim is responding to.

[Brent]

Let's see... - 3 sets of questions to staff and 3 sets of relatively worthless answers. I think we may need to come up with more precise questions since it now seems likely staff won't volunteer the information they know we're really looking for.

I was largely disappointed; Dick Moore's reply at least had some data that might perhaps be useful.

If we want to spend some time formulating specific questions and/or follow-ups, I will be happy to continue to submit them on behalf of the group.

And if we continue to get non-answers, we could discuss ways to deal with that. I have an idea or two.

[Don]

OK, just a clarification...these aren't "Brent's" questions, they're the group's questions. The one to Tim Bailey came from Lynne Loots via e-mail. I think that she and her neighbors had already asked similar questions of Staff, without much success. I'm guessing that that is what Tim is responding to.

ok, sorry, the groups questions.

[Wuptdo]

Just thinking out loud but.......

There is a old Chinses saying about keeping your fingers out of other people's rice bowls. I believe from the standpoint of staff, we are sticking our fingers into their ricebowl. When asking these questions we also must ask ourselves, what is their viewpoint or what do they gain from answering these questions; or do they even have to answer? I have seen over the years (here, F-V, Baltimore) where "staff" either dragged their feet or never gave a clear-cut answer. They have worked hard to prepare their budgets -- they are the professionals when it comes to city services/management -- who are "we" to even inquiry into their domains.

No doubt, we may find oursleves walking through various minefields of City government, but I believe it is our task to advise Council where the mines are, not set them off.

Therefore, I propose two things: 1) Limit questions to staff to very specific items; 2) view the question from their Point-of-view (POV).

Enjoy the Day!

Wuptdo B-)

[Cathy]

Wuptdo,

Perhaps there is a little bit of defensiveness from Staff as you say.
Perhaps they have reason to be defensive.
When looking at the Town Budget over the 2000 to 2004 period, the three departments that have seen the largest increase in personnel services are Planning (233%), Engineering (88%), and Parks and Rec (83%). Overall increase in personnel services is 71% or 21.6 million.

The Planning Dept and Engineering Dept. together has doubled in size over the last four years. The Finance Dept has increased by only two people but their cost per full time employee has increased 64%. Did they get big raises? the Inspections Dept. has actually decreased the number of employees, yet their payroll has increased by $425,000.
I would agree that they probably don't like this independent examination of the budget very much at all.

Cathy

[Wuptdo]

Cathy,

Exactly what I noticed as well. Massive increases in some departments, but minimal in others. If I were senior staff, I would be nevous due to the recent "regine" change. Also, no organization likes outside review, expecially done by the press (if public). I don't think we have the abilitiy to shine a light in every dark corner of the budget, but we can increase the overall lighting.

However, I still like my original questions. However, I would also add another: 3) Prepare a list of specific questions on behalf of the Town council to ask staff.

Mike

[kellyc]

I think we need to show EXTREME caution when asking staff questions. We should be very well aware of all sides of a story first. We also need to keep them limited to budget questions as opposed to personal agendas.

Kelly

[Cathy]

Well.... when and if the Town Budget is being examined, if one is looking at it as if it were a "corporation", (which it is), payroll is usually looked at upfront when finding ways to cut expenses. Existing debt payments will only go away when paid off. Payroll can be cut when money is tight.

Cathy

[Wuptdo]

Cathy,

Thank you, I was wondering about how to approach the human aspect of the budget. Looking at the town as a business, who is "overhead" and who is "labor?" Who is key and essential, and who can be outsourced?
Is Cary pay scale comparable to other towns in the Region? Benefits, especially medical is always something to look at. If people in the region are taking serious pay cuts and reduction in benefits, shouldn't that also reflect in local government as well?

Then there is debt service!

Mike

If you can't do, teach, if you can't teach, administrate, if you can't administrate, go into management, if you can't manage, get a job in government - Old Saying

[Cathy]

Mike,

I think that there is a section in the online Powerpoint presentation from the Retreat that examines the employees per citizen of Cary and makes some comparisons to other places. Can't remember everything they looked at, but when looking at it from a "per citizen" basis, the number of employees does not look out of line from elsewhere. This is not in depth enough when budget cutting is necessary.

Cathy

[Wuptdo]

Cathy,

(looking at the moth flying out of my money box) I still only have dial-up (everyone laugh) and I couldn't download that powerpoint from the retreats.

However, that cost per person is real "BS" if you ask me. In basic sales training it is called "reduce to the ridiculous;" using that technique you can justify anything to anybody. I wonder if they get sales training in a Master of Public Admin degree?

Mike B-)

Bureaucracy defends the status quo long past the time when the quo has lost its status. Laurence J. Peters, 1969

[Cathy]

Exactly!
I couldn't have said it any better than you have.

Cathy

(I stayed with dial-up myself until only recently)

[Karen]

I think we need to show EXTREME caution when asking staff questions. We should be very well aware of all sides of a story first. We also need to keep them limited to budget questions as opposed to personal agendas.

Kelly

I agree we need to keep the discussions focused on budget concerns as well. I'd like to propose we pick a person at each meeting to act as a mediator to keep things moving along when they stray off the budget topic. Could be the same person each meeting or someone different at each meeting. I think this will help move the meetings along. Any thoughts???

Also, as far as I'm aware the meeting was changed from tonight to May 6th. Am I correct???

Karen

[kellyc]

Yes I think the meeting for tonight has been cancelled. Brent are you gonna post the minutes? Maybe with the homework that was scheduled for next Thursday's meeting?

[Don]

does anyone have the data of how many staff members our town has vs. other towns of similar size? My understanding is that cary is "in line" with other muni's so I don't know how relevant this discussion is. (basically, I don't think staff's paychecks is where all our money is going but that's just me)

I would prefer a well-paid professional staff over under-paid baffoons anyday.

[Brent]

Just thinking out loud but.......

There is a old Chinses saying about keeping your fingers out of other people's rice bowls. I believe from the standpoint of staff, we are sticking our fingers into their ricebowl. When asking these questions we also must ask ourselves, what is their viewpoint or what do they gain from answering these questions; or do they even have to answer? I have seen over the years (here, F-V, Baltimore) where "staff" either dragged their feet or never gave a clear-cut answer. They have worked hard to prepare their budgets -- they are the professionals when it comes to city services/management -- who are "we" to even inquiry into their domains.

No doubt, we may find oursleves walking through various minefields of City government, but I believe it is our task to advise Council where the mines are, not set them off.

Therefore, I propose two things: 1) Limit questions to staff to very specific items; 2) view the question from their Point-of-view (POV).

Enjoy the Day!

Wuptdo B-)

Wuptdo,

These are good points and good advice.

Just to add: if I'm not mistaken, the ToC employee guidelines say something like "Citizens always come first". Staff is supposed to basically drop everything else to respond to citizens.

[Brent]

Yes I think the meeting for tonight has been cancelled. Brent are you gonna post the minutes? Maybe with the homework that was scheduled for next Thursday's meeting?

Karen, Kelly et al,

Yes, no meeting on Tuesday (I know, it's a moot point now).

Next meeting is Thursday, May 6, 6:30 p.m. at a TBD location (Michael Joyce has told me he will try to find a ToC facility for us to use).

I will post meeting minutes as soon as I can. Haven't had a chance (camped all weekend with Boy Scouts and have been traveling on business).

[Brent]

does anyone have the data of how many staff members our town has vs. other towns of similar size? My understanding is that cary is "in line" with other muni's so I don't know how relevant this discussion is. (basically, I don't think staff's paychecks is where all our money is going but that's just me)

I would prefer a well-paid professional staff over under-paid baffoons anyday.

The last I knew, which was last year, ToC had fewer staff members per capita than most towns its size. I have the actual data somewhere.

[Cathy]

From the Powerpoint presentation to Council retreat:

Staffing per 1,000 Population Comparison
9.54 Cary (1,015 FTEs)
9.80 Charlotte (6,002)
10.16 Raleigh (3,221)
11.46 Durham (2,216)
12.40 Greensboro (2,848)
12.51 Chapel Hill (656)
12.52 Winston-Salem (2,362)