Proposed CIP Budget

[dhyatt]

The first thing that struck me in the proposed FY2005 CIP budget is the fact that we are proposing spending more on PRCR than we are on transportation improvements. Although both categories took serious hits, transportation was cut 70% (as compared with FY2004) while PRCR was cut only 59%.

Total proposed funding of $6.9M for PRCR should be cut to the $4.3M covered by general obligation bonds. The remaining $2.6M should be used to bolster the transportation improvements portion of the CIP. If it means slowing/delaying certain greenway extension or delaying some construction of the Bartley park (which evidently includes an "off-leash dog facility"), then so be it. Parks aren't of much use if you spend your free time sitting in traffic because road projects have been delayed.

[Cathy]

Don,

The Parks Budget was cut this evening "a little bit".
Mike Joyce tried to get more cut from the Parks Budget, but the suggestion was "not well received" by some of the other Council members.
The North Cary Park items which amount to about 500,000, were voted out of the budget.
At the mere mention of cutting the Bartley Park funding, Marla and Julie protested.
Cathy

[Wuptdo]

I have five copies of the CIP budget; whoops, four copies. I will hold till next meeting, our you can come on by.

Cathy Heath and I had the opportunity to view the work session first hand today. I had to bite my pen to keep my mouth shut (no public comment allowed). Needless to say, they did make some changes, so keep an eye out for revisions. I took many notes, but also had many questions as well. I will put together some "Highlights" from my notes on Thursday. Hopefully, they will coincide with Cathy's.

thanks,

Mike

[Brent]

I will look forward to the summary of this meeting, which I was unable to attend. :(

I heartily agree with Hyatt.

[MattD]

Hi Mike - Don't forget about me! I was there for a good hour.

[Brent]

Matt,

Which hour was good? :lol:

[Wuptdo]

Matt,

We are right. Sorry about that, seeing how I was directly across from you. Took Thurday off, so I will complie my notes today.

Chow.

Mike B-)

[Cathy]

The meeting began by starting at page 13 of the printed 2005 CIB & Plan.


General comments made:
Revenue growth has been at 1%
Operating margin has decreased
Operating costs have increased for Parks & General services
The Capitol Fund is down 50%

First reviewed were the CIP Budget requests for Transportation.
Review of Transportation requests brought these comments:

Of the 6 mil in requests, 1mil is already spent.
Nels wanted more money for "pedestrian oriented" projects. Nels felt that some other transportation item could be cut and the money re-allocated. Julie supported the request. Noted that sidewalks cost $26 per foot. Some neighborhoods fight sidewalk installation. Some additional sidewalk will be covered by the State in conjunction with State Rd projects. Much has been done in recent years, and there will be focus on priority needs. Ernie told Nels that if any item was seen as able to be cut, then it should be cut and the money should not be allocated to anything else.

18 Million was cut from the 2005 Budget. This would help avoid dipping into the General Operating Fund.

Marla Dorell expressed concern that Transportation Projects were cut 70% for 2005. Julie Robison questioned that if this was done for more than just one year, would that cause traffic problems or would citizens be upset if Bond Projects are delayed. Staff noted that Cary Roads are rated by an outside agency and their rating is improving every year. It is State owned roads in Town that are deteriorating.

High priority projects like the Walnut St. corridor are unfunded and delayed due to budget and the projections of growth have not met previous expectations. Growth has been only 1% in the area, and the State is making ramp changes at Walnut St. that should improve traffic flow.

Parks:

Marla spoke in favor of the Parks Budget as submitted.
Michael Joyce suggested a moratorium on all Parks projects until budget shortfall is resolved. Marla Dorrel strongly protested the suggestion.
Several Council members questioned the need to move forward with the North Cary Park. Jack Smith pointed out that demographics and growth areas are different than projected at the time that the Park was planned. Council members took a straw vote and voted in favor of removing the park expenses of $500, 000 from the budget.

Michael Joyce questioned the Bartley Park construction costs of 3.25 Million $'s in this years budget. Marla Dorrell had a very strong negative reaction to that suggestion. Julie supported her. A vote was taken and the Park was approved to go forward this year.

Jennifer Robinson noted that the TCAP Gateway project was eliciting some negative feedback from citizens. Other Council members noted that they did receive negative feedback. Mike and Jack suggested that the project not go forward until more review of the project by citizens.

Marla Dorrell defended the project as is. She said that there had been citizen input throughout the project and a group that she met with the previous day discussed private efforts by citizens to raise the additional funds needed to cover cost overruns.
Ernie noted that since the project had come in so far over the budgeted amount, the Town could not move forward with the project as it is proposed. Decision on the Gateway project was delayed.

General:

Only item discussed was the Operations Center parking deck. Nels Roseland questioned the request. Staff explained that it would be needed.
Utility Fund Discussion
Only item addressed under the Utility Fund was the odor abatement being addressed at the North Cary facility. Nels argued for immediate good faith action for a solution. He felt that it was driving development away from the Weston area. Staff admitted that one of the "digesters" was broken beyond repair. Nels pressed for something to be done to show that the odor would be addressed. 1.5 Million dollars was appropriated to begin looking at how to solve the problem.

Julie Robison argued for adding the Maynard crossing to the 10 yr CIP this year so that construction could begin sometime in the next couple of years. The needed funds to be allocated for this would be $700,000. Discussion that followed included the fact that they should not approve a mid-year appropriation of funds for that. Veterans Park money that was recently approved was brought up as a "mid-year appropriation". Staff explained that it really was not a mid-year appropriation. (I can't remember what the decision was on this item, but I think it was not approved)

Meeting was then adjourned.

[Wuptdo]

Town of Cary 1st Work Session for FY2004-2005 CIP Budget
12 May 2004, Town Hall Complex

Thoughts, comments, questions and ideas from observation.


Since I didn’t have a copy of the budget to follow the line items, I just took notes on what I heard. However, what is not said, or how it said, or the tone it is said, is much more important than what is said.

After reading Cathy’s input, I will just add some additional bullets and my own thoughts.

Cary High School Pedestrian Package – it is good to go.

1) Discussed the 3 roundabouts for the TCAP – are moving forward. Question: How will this affect stormwater management plans; i.e., the “Canals of Cary"?

2) Expansion and full funding for C-Tran. Addition of two more buses. Hopefully, Federal or State government will pick most of the tab.

3) Miss Jennifer – very concerned about the High House Road widening – staff noted “right of way” issues were being handled.

4) On the road bond issue; several members noted that because of the overwhelming support from the citizens, which the citizens knew that tax increases would happen when the bonds were sold. (I smell a tax increase here and they haven’t even talk about the operating budget. Also, don’t remember the source, but the New York Bond people indicated bond rating may be in trouble if we don’t find a revenue source to cover debt expenses.)

5) I was confused about the of the road projects and what was being paid for with bonds and what the state was picking up

6) Mr. Smith noted the State was behind in road maintenance, but the backlog was being reduced. Mike Joyce suggested the town take care of the problems and send the bill to the State – all laughed!

Parks & Recs

1) North Cary Park has a Community Center on it. Location issue and dropped till next year(?). ($450,000 cut)

2) Marla feels very strongly about the parks and considers it the key “quality of life” issue in Cary.

3) Aquatics Center – is there an additional 5 million for this years budget? (So is there 10 million now set aside for this?)

4) Cary Elementary Project – what to do. $60K for a consultant to come up with ideas and utilization. $2-3 million just for asbestos removal and renovations.

5) Public Art at TCAP. Some objectives from the public, however, Marla pointed out there will always be and that most people can’t see nor understand the “big” art picture. Art is subjective. Plus I don’t think most of the council people were aware that the artist did much more work beyond the scope of the bid and therefore the cost went up, i.e., she looked at the “whole” campus.

General

1) Parking Garage for city employees at the Operations Center. This will be a hard sell to the public. Mr. Nels suggested that the employees park somewhere else and let C-tran bus them in. (My suggestion – go to two shifts – you no longer have to pay extra money for 2nd shift.)

Utility

1) It was really Miss Julie who led the charge on the odor problem at the NCWWTC. Mr. Nels basically agreed. $1.5 million set aside pending consultant’s recommendation. This is driving by market conditions at the Weston complex and future development.

2) What the heck is the Maynard Crossing and what does Weatherstone so concerned about it. ($700,000)

3) The paradox the TC faces: The higher the residential, the more demands on water and sewer; the higher the commercial, less demand on W/S, however, higher demand on roads (traffic).

4) Hold off funds to VA park till 1 JUL 04. They will get $150K, but town does not want to be in a position to make mid-year appropriations.

Observation – this was show-n-tell. I think staff has done a pretty good job, particularity with a lowered revenue stream, and trying to project worse case inflation rate of 5%. However, the days of free for all spending are over and the hangover has set in. There is definitely feeling that the latest bond money needs to be spent on what was promised to the public. The press was there. Cathy, your report was much more professional and to the point.

Many thanks,

Mike B-)

[Cathy]

Mike

Two sets of ears, and two different points of view, are better than one!

Cathy

[Wuptdo]

Cathy,

So true, so true. Now all we need is Matt D's point of view! I can see that you are the reporter by your notes. I took notes like I was in class.

Curious to know what the others members of the committee think; i.e., was our time and effort in posting these notes helpful (I really want to hear from the 10 to 12 members who have never posted)?

Enjoy the weekend.

Mike B-)

[MattD]

Hello Everyone -

I would like to add what I heard/my point of view... but I cannot. Both Mike and Cathy were dead-on in their postings.

Was it me or was the "hottest" moment over Parks? When Joyce suggested a one-year moratorium on Parks I swear two council members were ready to pounce!

What I will find interesting is Adam Arnold's article in next weeks Cary News. From what I have read, he is mostly non-partisian, straight-forward and doesn't throw punches.

Frankly, I was impressed with Jennifer Robinson. When she had issues/commments, she owned the floor to make sure her point of view was known. She didn't back down from anyone.

-----------------------
(how do you add someone's quote to these postings?)
BRENT - The "good hour" of the meeting was the hour that I was there :-D

[Cathy]

Matt,
By far, the "hottest moment" was the Parks discussion.
When Mike Joyce suggested the Parks projects be put "on hold", I thought that Marla's reaction was "hot" to say the least.
I thought the same thing about Adam Arnold's eventual report on this meeting. I can't wait to see how he reports it!

And Jennifer Robinson absolutely demonstrated a reasoned position on the budget and she made some very good points. She needs to follow through and stand her ground on what she obviously knows is the right thing to do.

Cathy

[Don]

Town of Cary 1st Work Session for FY2004-2005 CIP Budget
12 May 2004, Town Hall Complex

Discussed the 3 roundabouts for the TCAP – are moving forward. Question: How will this affect stormwater management plans; i.e., the “Canals of Cary"?

It shouldn't affect the "canals" at all Mike. If the canals are even a possibility. My first question is where would they go? How would the town aquire all the land for a canal system? This is just talk for now. Could be a possibility but many details to work out before that egg hatches. The roundabouts will be at the end of East Chatham and Maynard and at the West Chatham and Old Apex fork. I couldn't see a canal in either of those areas even if that became reality.

2) Expansion and full funding for C-Tran. Addition of two more buses. Hopefully, Federal or State government will pick most of the tab.

Sounds good to me.

6) Mr. Smith noted the State was behind in road maintenance, but the backlog was being reduced. Mike Joyce suggested the town take care of the problems and send the bill to the State – all laughed!

Wouldn't it be nice if government was accountable like the private sector?

2) Marla feels very strongly about the parks and considers it the key “quality of life” issue in Cary.

Except the Veterans Freedom Park remember. For some reason she didn't support that one. :roll:

3) Aquatics Center – is there an additional 5 million for this years budget? (So is there 10 million now set aside for this?)

who cares? Dump it.

4) Cary Elementary Project – what to do. $60K for a consultant to come up with ideas and utilization. $2-3 million just for asbestos removal and renovations.

Please expand on this. Come up with ideas??? Seriously? They want to pay someone $60,000 to figure out what to do with the building?

5) Public Art at TCAP. Some objectives from the public, however, Marla pointed out there will always be and that most people can’t see nor understand the “big” art picture. Art is subjective. Plus I don’t think most of the council people were aware that the artist did much more work beyond the scope of the bid and therefore the cost went up, i.e., she looked at the “whole” campus.

Please. Maybe most people would think killing the "Gates of Fright" project in front of town hall instead of SRO's or road improvements is a better idea? What's that word again - Priorities? Maybe Marla doesn't understand what that word means? Need to haves vs. Nice to haves. Those of us in the real world/private sector understand it.

Didn't someone tell Mrs. Widgery what the amount budgeted for was? Or is she trying to go for some add on sales? Or did we just plain under budget?

[Don]

The first thing that struck me in the proposed FY2005 CIP budget is the fact that we are proposing spending more on PRCR than we are on transportation improvements. Although both categories took serious hits, transportation was cut 70% (as compared with FY2004) while PRCR was cut only 59%.

Total proposed funding of $6.9M for PRCR should be cut to the $4.3M covered by general obligation bonds. The remaining $2.6M should be used to bolster the transportation improvements portion of the CIP. If it means slowing/delaying certain greenway extension or delaying some construction of the Bartley park (which evidently includes an "off-leash dog facility"), then so be it. Parks aren't of much use if you spend your free time sitting in traffic because road projects have been delayed.

Agreed. When surveyed, the public has consistently stated that roads/traffic are their #1 concern. Even over schools which rank #2.
Definitely out of whack here. The town has made great strides catching up from a previous deficit, it's now time to slow down and focus on priorities.

[Brent]

(how do you add someone's quote to these postings?)


Matt,

Instead of clicking "Post Reply", go to the post from which you want to quote and click "Quote". You'll get a screen similar to when you compose any other post, but it will contain the post from which you're quoting, bounded by a beginning tag that says [ quote="<username>"] and an ending tag that says [ /quote]

Just type your stuff after the quoted material. You can remove parts of the post between the tags to focus on just the part you want to cite. You can copy & paste the begin/end tags to have multiple citations (see Don's post above for an example).

Next week we will work on bold, italic and colors. Graduates of the intermediate class may move on to photos. :D

[Cathy]

4) Cary Elementary Project – what to do. $60K for a consultant to come up with ideas and utilization. $2-3 million just for asbestos removal and renovations.

Please expand on this. Come up with ideas??? Seriously? They want to pay someone $60,000 to figure out what to do with the building?

5) Public Art at TCAP. Some objectives from the public, however, Marla pointed out there will always be and that most people can’t see nor understand the “big” art picture. Art is subjective. Plus I don’t think most of the council people were aware that the artist did much more work beyond the scope of the bid and therefore the cost went up, i.e., she looked at the “whole” campus.

Please. Maybe most people would think killing the "Gates of Fright" project in front of town hall instead of SRO's or road improvements is a better idea? What's that word again - Priorities? Maybe Marla doesn't understand what that word means? Need to haves vs. Nice to haves. Those of us in the real world/private sector understand it.

Didn't someone tell Mrs. Widgery what the amount budgeted for was? Or is she trying to go for some add on sales? Or did we just plain under budget?

Don,

I know that you realize that Town Council & Staff have spent quite a bit of money over the years on "studies". (Isn't Nels a big fan of "studies"?)

It would be interesting if someone researched and compiled all of the money spent since 2000 on "studies" and the cost/benefit analysis of these studies and the resulting action taken.

My guess on Ms. Widgery is that she knew how much was budgeted.
In art you can always do something that is more expensive (or less expensive) than the budgeted amount, hence she chose to ignore the budget. (Or someone gave her the impression that she should ignore it)

There is no way that the Town "under budgeted" for this. When buying "Art" that concept could only loosely apply.

Cathy

[Wuptdo]

Cathy,

It is like you were reading my notes :) . One of my questions to me was something like "how much has the town spent in "Studies & Consultants" in the last severals years and; at one point does it become much cheaper just to hire staff people just to do studies. (How many beach condo's were paid for by consultants doing business with the TOC?)

The bottom line, the days of the Cary "Cash Cow" are over; them utt'ers done gone and dried up!

Mike B-)

[Don]

Next week we will work on bold, italic and colors. Graduates of the intermediate class may move on to photos. :D

You gotta love smartie-pants' huh Matt?

[Don]

Cathy,

It is like you were reading my notes :) . One of my questions to me was something like "how much has the town spent in "Studies & Consultants" in the last severals years and; at one point does it become much cheaper just to hire staff people just to do studies. (How many beach condo's were paid for by consultants doing business with the TOC?)

The bottom line, the days of the Cary "Cash Cow" are over; them utt'ers done gone and dried up!

Mike B-)

As far all all projects the number is in the millions I am sure. But in regards to TCAP, and I'm going off old notes here, since 1998 over $400,000.00 had been paid to the Chesapeak Group for consulting services.

I believe staff and the communities working together could easily accomplish what high priced consultants do. Don't we after all know what's best for our community? We have some very talented town employees in planning and engineering and with the right guidance from the community they could do some wonderful things. If there is a "new" project to Cary that we feel requires a consultant, hire one, but to hire one for every little thing is rediculous. Of the 400 grand spent downtown to consultants, what Cary got in return was a "plan". What's in that plan is basically what the downtown folks have crying for for years. It's also really really expensive if the town pays for it.

I was disappointed to hear at the last HOC meeting that Cary has yet to start work on creating any incentives programs for redevelopment downtown. Since redevelopment is much more expensive and risky than development of greenfields, developers or businesses are less likely to redevelop than develop. However, if old, underutilized property were redeveloped, the tax base to the town is increased and hopefully another economic development or neighborhood success is created. This is a win-win for both the property owner(s) and the town. It is in the town's best interest to provide a complete incentives package for both existing business' and new business as well as residential redevelopment projects. Provide a tax abatement program for redevelopment projects. Reduce or eliminate impact fees on redeveloped properties. Create some zero interest loan programs or award facade grants for exterior remodles. Do something. But after the last two years especially, to hear that the town has squat is weak.

If Cary had a great incentives package for redevelopment, redevelopment might take care of most of the problems existing downtown and Cary wouldn't have to.

[Wuptdo]

Don,

Man, what more do you "downtown business people" want from us taxpayers. You got pavers, new lights, "Celebrate Cary" Banners, art work, plus you are getting 3 turn-a-bouts and even more fancy lights. (and the list goes on!) 8O !

All kidding aside - what is the number one problem downtown - NO PARKING! Until that problem is resolve, everything else is mute. I about threw-up at the CIP meeting the other day when they mention Cary Elementary "project" and renovating the library - all I could think about, ok, fine, but where are people going to park? Every try to use the library at night - NO PARKING! And don't even try Sunday morning!

Then what exactly is "downtown?" Where Frantz Auto is I don't consider "downtown." To me, it is "old town" West, and where Circus is "Old town" East. The only reason why I ever took friends and family "downtown" was for banana pudding at Melba's (and only if there was parking). At this point in time (to me anyway), "downtown" is nothing more than a drive-thru (short cut) to business on the other side of town. Not trying to be mean here, just honest - no parking = no sale.

This is a "long-term" problem that may never be resolved. However, you either live with what is there and deal with it; or bulldoze it, and start over. Hopefully, $400K worth of studies, there is a solution.

Just my 2 cents.

Mike B-)

[Brent]

Next week we will work on bold, italic and colors. Graduates of the intermediate class may move on to photos. :D

You gotta love smartie-pants' huh Matt?

For the record, I know nearly nothing about cars. :lol:

[Brent]

Agreed with Don, Cathy & Mike that we spend too much on consultants and too easily throw money the consultants' way. We need to be much more judicious in this area.

Agreed with Mike about downtown parking. The Town is planning some parking decks (3?), but I don't know if any of them are funded. And there's this vision that people will walk about downtown and not need cars to get there (I guess they're going to use the train... 8O ).

[Cathy]

PARKING!!!!!?????
PARKING???????!!!!!!!

8O Jeeezzzz...don't you's guy's get it yet? 8O

Didn't you see the concept drawings for downtown???

You DO NOT plan for parking in a "New Urbanist" style Smart Growth Town!!! 8-O (Just ask Stan)

YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO WALK AND TAKE THE TRAIN!!!!! :wink:

(Oh yeah, sorry Steve,) _OR RIDE YOUR BIKE! :oops:

(let's do a study on it!_OK!!??)

(And Brent_I do need the lesson on how to get pictures included that aren't linked to somewhere on the web!) :-D

[Don]

Don,

Man, what more do you "downtown business people" want from us taxpayers. You got pavers, new lights, "Celebrate Cary" Banners, art work, plus you are getting 3 turn-a-bouts and even more fancy lights. (and the list goes on!) 8O !

Banners are pretty killer huh? :wink:

All kidding aside - what is the number one problem downtown - NO PARKING! Until that problem is resolve, everything else is mute. I about threw-up at the CIP meeting the other day when they mention Cary Elementary "project" and renovating the library - all I could think about, ok, fine, but where are people going to park? Every try to use the library at night - NO PARKING! And don't even try Sunday morning!

Almost agreed. The number one problem to businesses is parking. The number one concern to residents is stormwater. A parking deck will definitely help the businesses out, but how many average shoppers are cool with parking in a deck and walking a block, in the rain, to shop? We need some other ammenities to draw folks downtown also such as the proposed park, cultural arts facility, etc.. Also, I don't know how successful the build to the sidewalk vision will be. Redevelopment must be allowed to provide ample parking. If that means the business has to have a parking lot in front or on the side, so be it. Chocolate Smiles Village is a great example of use of space while providing ample parking for it's customers. What about the BB+T /Cary News Building? What's wrong with that?

The town also needs to address the stormwater concerns. More and more homes are turning rental because folks are moving out and can't sell. Neighborhoods will continue to deteriorate until the town addresses the lacking infrastructure downtown. Don't get me started on Lexie Lane Park or the dump.

Then what exactly is "downtown?" Where Frantz Auto is I don't consider "downtown." To me, it is "old town" West, and where Circus is "Old town" East. The only reason why I ever took friends and family "downtown" was for banana pudding at Melba's (and only if there was parking). At this point in time (to me anyway), "downtown" is nothing more than a drive-thru (short cut) to business on the other side of town. Not trying to be mean here, just honest - no parking = no sale.

Downtown is basically Chatham st. from Maynard to High House and a few blocks north and south of Chatham St.. Frantz Automotive is Downtown Wup. Call it old town west if ya want but we're downtown - just not in the core. Many do use downtown as a pass through. That's why we have lobbied for changes to the sign ordinance. Current restrictions are too pedestrian oriented when the majority of traffic through downtown is by automobile. We hope to let some of you passer-by's know what's here so "if" you find a parking space :wink: you'll stop.

This is a "long-term" problem that may never be resolved. However, you either live with what is there and deal with it; or bulldoze it, and start over. Hopefully, $400K worth of studies, there is a solution.

Then lets create some incentives packages that encourage a developer to take the risk in downtown Cary and redevelop. Lets come up with some tax breaks that encourage new businesses downtown and puts people to work. Lets make redevloping your property worthwhile and not a hassle. Drop the restrictive ordinances and costly fees that discourage redevelopment. We've got the plan, lets start trying to implement some of it. Becoming more market friendly would be a great start.

[Brent]

The TCAP basically covers everything inside the Maynard loop (!).

And yes, Don, I have noticed more and more "For Sale" signs, often older properties, that say "Town Center zoning". Which is, of course, a huge alert to developers who want to purchase and consolidate properties so that they can build the town's "vision". I think that consists of apartments/condos/townhomes, precious shops and "new urban" restaurants (the more stories, the better! Preferred: Thai, Vegetarian, Haute Cuisine...sorry, BBQ is not part of the vision). Then, as Cathy points out, we claim that everyone inside and outside of Cary will walk, bicycle (or take the train) to these amenities. Once they arrive, they will smile, spend a lot of money, appreciate the arts and break out into an impromptu rendition of "I'd Like To Teach The World To Sing". Then everyone will remark about how Cary is so progressive, with building affordable housing downtown. The climax will be a march to the renovated Cary Elementary building, where a huge group hug will take place (followed by speeches and more impromptu singing, to include "Puff The Magic Dragon", "The Times They Are A-Changin'" and "Sign, Sign, Everywhere a Sign!".

Surprisingly, auto businesses aren't part of the vision. Neither are pink businesses (only pink houses). People who have lived in the area for decades will have their whining about stormwater ignored. After all, we've got a vision to accomplish! Property rights be damned! We need density and precious shops!

Done venting (and sounding like Cathy, who makes an awful lot of sense)...for now.

Geesh.

P.S. Hyatt, I know it's bad form to nominate one's own post for a "classic"... but so moved.

[Wuptdo]

Brent wrote:

"Puff The Magic Dragon", "The Times They Are A-Changin'" and "Sign, Sign, Everywhere a Sign!".


Brent, you forgot "It's a small, small, small World," and ending with "I would like to buy the world a Coke!". That is the que to go shop till you drop. :wink:

*****Does not belong here, but wanted to share**********

This was before I met Don F. I always imagined inside of Don's office is a sign that says "Long haired freaky people, need not apply!" I would put my hair under my hat, walk in, and apply (old grease monkey, from way back when). After Don would hire me, and I would left off my hat and say "surprise!" "Sign, Sign, Everywhere a Sign!" Thanks Brent for the memory trigger :lol: !

********Back to the real world**********

Brent, several good post here. Don, you have very valid points. So why aren't they implemented? Time, Money, or politics?

Mike B-)

[Cathy]

Even thought my last post took on the appearance of a RANT, I will blame it on my attempt to show off the fact that I have mastered most of the buttons on the "post a reply". I hope that Brent could read the last line in 'tiny' print though, because I do not know how to get pictures included into posts without finding a url to link.

And I think I should stop replying to anything when it is late and I am tired. (:|

Thanks for the support Brent, even when I am being a S/A. I'm glad that you are begininng to see that many seemingly unrelated things going on are actually pieces of a single 'comprehensive' 'vision' that are trying to come together. And thanks for pointing out the "For Sale" notation. You could almost consider changes made in that manner 'market driven' but they would not be, because ordinances would drive the resulting redevelopment, not what would be the financially sound choice of use. (Just look at that empty row of buildings on Chapel Hill & Academy!) That property owner is one unhappy camper because he complied with the Town vision and what has it gotten him? Possibly bankruptsy? Hmmm...sounds like a familiar trend.....TOC budget??....)

And BTW Brent, you are pretty good at being a S/A yourself!

Cathy

[Don]

*****Does not belong here, but wanted to share**********

This was before I met Don F. I always imagined inside of Don's office is a sign that says "Long haired freaky people, need not apply!" I would put my hair under my hat, walk in, and apply (old grease monkey, from way back when). After Don would hire me, and I would left off my hat and say "surprise!" "Sign, Sign, Everywhere a Sign!" Thanks Brent for the memory trigger :lol: !

You've never seen the inside of my shop have you?
And you better watch out with all those signs, we have ordinances around here ya know.

Brent, several good post here. Don, you have very valid points. So why aren't they implemented? Time, Money, or politics?


All the above I guess. Why we wouldn't be exploring incentives is beyond me. Seems like too much bureaucracy and not enough common sense. Well shoot, I guess that's politics huh?

[Brent]

Brent wrote:

"Puff The Magic Dragon", "The Times They Are A-Changin'" and "Sign, Sign, Everywhere a Sign!".


Brent, you forgot "It's a small, small, small World," and ending with "I would like to buy the world a Coke!". That is the que to go shop till you drop. :wink:

Wup, I did forget "Small World", but earlier in the post I *DID* mention "I'd like to teach the world to sing" (a.k.a. "I'd like to buy the world a Coke!").

I also omitted "Up With People!". :lol:

[Brent]

Even thought my last post took on the appearance of a RANT, I will blame it on my attempt to show off the fact that I have mastered most of the buttons on the "post a reply". I hope that Brent could read the last line in 'tiny' print though, because I do not know how to get pictures included into posts without finding a url to link.

Cathy, you do need to link to a URL for a picture. However, I am happy to assist with same. Send me the picture and I'll set you up.

And BTW Brent, you are pretty good at being a S/A yourself!

I hope you are not just now realizing this! :lol: :wink:

[Brent]

This was before I met Don F. I always imagined inside of Don's office is a sign that says "Long haired freaky people, need not apply!" I would put my hair under my hat, walk in, and apply (old grease monkey, from way back when). After Don would hire me, and I would left off my hat and say "surprise!" "Sign, Sign, Everywhere a Sign!" Thanks Brent for the memory trigger :lol: !

And the sign says "long hair freaky people need not apply"
So Wup put his hair under his hat and he went in to ask him why
Don said you look like a fine outstanding young man but you'll need some new pants,
So Wup took off his hat and said "Imagine that Huh Me working for Frantz"
:lol:

[johnb]

You people are so sad.

:cry: