Terri Schiavo [Archive] - Cary Politics

dhyatt

10-23-2003, 02:17 PM

One of the last things my dad ever said to me was about a week before he sucumbed to a year long bout with cancer. His practically unintelligible words "Can't you please just end it" are even now, 11 years later, the single most painful memory I have. The utter inablity to help him do what he most deparately wanted to do - die - weighs on me to this day. I have not viewed euthanasia the same ever since. You see, I knew without a doubt that's what my dad wanted and I also knew I could wind up in jail if I sped his inevitible death. The Lord took him home about a week later but I've always harbored a bit a doubt about whether or not I should have done more.

The case of Terri Schiavo brings to the very forefront of my mind the pain and the problem with euthanasia. Terri's husband swears she said she didn't want to live the way she is. He's convinced he's doing the right thing by letting her die. Her parents are holding out hope as only parents can do. And as the legal wrangling continues, there's only one thing I know for sure: I don't envy any of them.

Anonymous

10-23-2003, 02:52 PM

The danger of using the Schiavo case as an example of the "right to die" is tremendous. Schiavo isn't in a persistant vegetative state. One doctor, on the payroll of the husband, has said she is, three other doctors have said she isn't and in fact stated there is no need for a feeding tube as she can swallow.

The fact of the matter is Schiavo has a large sum of cash from an insurance settlement that is supposed to be used for her benefit and medical care. Her husband has a fiance he has already impregnated but cannot marry because if he divorces Schiavo he looses control over the cash. The ONLY way for him to keep the cash and be able to marry his girlfriend is for his current wife to die.

The husband has hidden her in a hospice for the terminally ill. He will not allow any doctor but the one working for him to examine her now. He will not allow any expenditure of cash to be used for any but the most minimal of care for his wife AND his legal bills in his attempt to starve her to death.

She is not on a respirator, she can and does respond to stimuli, she is
brain damaged and she will never recover, that is true. But that is not justification to execute her.

What this case is is a case of domestic violence in which the perp is attempting to get the state and medical establishment to do his dirty work for him.

All he has to do is divorce his wife....turn the insurance money over to her parents or some other executor so that money can be used for HER benefit, not his, and he could walk away now and marry his fiance. He won't though, he want's the cash.

Mix enough $ into the mix and people have a tendancy to act in some very hideous ways.

There are some really good web site detailing some of these issues in the Schiavo case. Including pics of this supposed "vegetative" woman.

Not too many vegetables are as animated as she is.

Anonymous

10-23-2003, 04:54 PM

Although I don't know all the facts about this case I do know that in 10 years this poor woman has not received any therapies that could have greatly improved her functional capacity. I just read an article in which a top speech/language pathologist gave her opinion that Terri is indeed NOT in a persistant vegatative state. And could benefit from swallow studies to see if she can indeed be feed by mouth. (I have seen these studies performed and it is amazing how many patients thought to not be able to be feed by mouth indeed can be!!!) However, her husband and lawyer are forbidding this form of testing.

Having worked for many years as a Physical Therapist, although neurology is not my specialty, I just can't understand the husband's insistance that she is in a PVS. What this woman needs is a full medical workup INCLUDING evaluations by speech pathologists, ocupational therapists, physical therapists and MD's who specialize in neurological rehabilitation. I'd say INDEPENDENTLY from all interested parties. But again, the husband I'm sure would not agree to this either.

Her husband's lawyer is using a litmus test that she can't even bring a spoon to her mouth as some sort of "evaluation" as to ones cognitive state. HORSEFEATHERS! Tell that to the number of parent's who's children with CP are feed through feeding tubes. Ridiculous...

Terri's husband should divorce her. That's what I think is the humane thing to do. Let her parents care her if he doesn't want to. Let them use the 1.3 millions dollars that is SUPPOSED to (but is not) be being used for her care. Unfortunately he won't... Such a sad case.

Another twist in this case. The husband did receive a court order to remove her feeding tube (which it was), and Governer Bush overturned it and had it reinserted. Should this have happened???

Karen

Karen

10-23-2003, 04:57 PM

Ding...forgot to log in again!!! :D

kellyc

10-24-2003, 07:32 AM

Karen

10-24-2003, 08:12 AM

John its almost scary to me that you and I agree on this. While I think she deserves to die, I cant help but question the motives of the husband. Yet the torn part of me says, he should get to go on with his life too....Its tough...

Kelly

The problem I have is that we don't know for sure if SHE wants to die. It seems more to me that it's her husband that wants this. AND he does have an "out" so to speak. He can DIVORCE her and "get on with his life". But he has financial motives for not doing this. Her family has stated time and time again that they would take over her care but the husband refuses this. And he refuses medical care that can greatly benefit her. With further medical care and theraputic interventions maybe she could get to the point of increased communication and we could find out for sure if she wanted to die or not. Now, of course, this is a strong MAYBE, but her husband has never given her this chance. To me the husband is being abusive for denying her BETTER care. He has 1.3 million dollars at his disposal that is NOT being used on her care for more that 10 years. That is simply wrong to me.

Karen

kellyc

10-24-2003, 08:15 AM

Your probably right. Its hard to know what is going on with her. Regardless I wouldnt want to be in any of their shoes.

dhyatt

10-24-2003, 09:21 AM

Your probably right. Its hard to know what is going on with her. Regardless I wouldnt want to be in any of their shoes.

Which was sort of my point to begin with :wink: I'll put in on public record now - if I am unable to communicate with anyone and show little or no signs of awareness of my surroundings and doctors can offer no firm hope for improvement and brain damaged (no jokes about my current state please) and not merely comatose (no jokes about P&Z please), then please let my pass on to the great hereafter.

Don Hyatt

Karen

10-24-2003, 09:37 AM

Which was sort of my point to begin with :wink: I'll put in on public record now - if I am unable to communicate with anyone and show little or no signs of awareness of my surroundings and doctors can offer no firm hope for improvement and brain damaged (no jokes about my current state please) and not merely comatose (no jokes about P&Z please), then please let my pass on to the great hereafter.

Don Hyatt

From what I understand and have been reading, Terri really hasn't been given the theraputic opprotunities to truely assess and improve on these things. I'm glad no one gave up on Stephen Hawkins just because he couldn't talk and walk like "normal" people. He was given the opprotunities to figure out HOW to communicate, thus the world had one of the greatest physists know to man. Terri isn't even being given the opprotunities to work with a speech pathologist to assess her ability to communicate. This is the issue I have with this whole deal. The husband is making a claim that she is in a PVS without a full INDEPENDENT evaluation of his own wife. He certainly has the resources to do this. I think there are too many unknowns about her congitive level.

On a personal level. I have a living will and am not afraid to use it!!! :wink:

Karen

Anonymous

10-24-2003, 10:13 AM

I think the husband has done an incredibly effective job of blowing so much smoke that people assume this is a question of Schiavo's supposed "right to die".

Let's recall the facts:

1-she isn't on a respirator.
2-she isn't brain dead.
3-she is on a feeding tube at the insistance of her husband, he will NOT allow any expenditure of cash for her therapy.
4-she was awarded $1 million dollars that is supposed to be used for her benefit but will be his if and when she dies.
5-the husband will not allow any independent medical examination of his wife to occur.
6-the husband will not allow any expenditure of cash for his wife's rehabilitation/therapy.
7-the husband will not allow any release of medical information to anyone without his consent.
8-the husband removed his wife a hospital, more than once, and put her in a hospice for the terminally ill in spite of the fact that she is not terminally ill and that facility is poorly equiped to handle her condition.
9-He's already engaged to another woman.

There is a reason he won't divorce his wife, if he does her money reverts to *her* as he won't be her executor/caretaker anymore. All he has to do is divorce her, turn HER money over to her parents/attorneys and allow that cash to be used for her benefit. He would then be free to get on with his life. He will not do that, he wants the cash.

Besides, lacking a living will, who the h3ll has the right to decide who "deserves to die"?

That sounds amazingly similar to the language the National Socialists used when they pruned the handicapped from German society in the 30's.

kellyc

10-24-2003, 10:49 AM

Besides, lacking a living will, who the h3ll has the right to decide who "deserves to die"?

My Grandmother was in a very, very similiar situation. I dont and still didnt think it was right. Knowing my Grandmother she was appaled at living in a condition where she couldnt take care of herself. If Terri is not brain dead, and trying to compare that to my Grandmother would make it even worse. Then she would possibly know that she no longer had the ability to communicate, she would have the ability to know what she couldnt do. When I said she deserves to die is that she shouldnt be forced to life in a hospital bed for the rest of her life unable to communicate, unable to have some kind of basic quality of life. That is cruelty to me.

Kelly

Laurie

10-24-2003, 01:52 PM

I agree with everything John said. Her husband refuses to say if he has any life insurance on his wife. He is the only one in his wife's family who wants the feeding tube removed. Starving a helpless person to death over a period of 10 days, two weeks or more is not an act of compassion.
Laurie

Brent

10-25-2003, 11:17 AM

if I am unable to communicate with anyone and show little or no signs of awareness of my surroundings and doctors can offer no firm hope for improvement and brain damaged (no jokes about my current state please) and not merely comatose (no jokes about P&Z please)Don Hyatt

How about jokes about how you have described, say, certain people on this forum, on CTC, or whatever? :)

Brent

10-25-2003, 11:18 AM

I agree with everything John said.Laurie

I think that this sentence has never appeared on CP before!

Anonymous

10-27-2003, 02:06 PM

Don

10-29-2003, 01:17 PM

Really, John is such a compassionate guy with so much respect for his fellow citizens that John believes:

:that he has no right to direct the affairs of Brent's life,

:that he has no right to interfere with the parent/child relationship in Brent's house,

:that all Brent's income is earned and that it all belongs to Brent,

:that Brent is an adult who doesn't need a nanny to tell him not to smoke or how to eat or not to put his tongue on a frozen surface,

John thinks the world would be a much nicer place if people would 1-mind their own business and 2-keep their hands to themselves.

John also thinks the only time government should interfere is in cases where one persons actions are having real, physical impacts on another person's rights. Forcibly starving someone under false pretenses, as in the Schiavo case, is one example.

But, I'm the same officially designated Cary SOB that believes the law is supposed to apply to everyone, all the time, equally. What the h3ll do I know?

You know a lot, and most who read this would agree with you 100%, I almost do. The problem is though, for us to have some form of government, no matter how large or small, we must pay taxes to fund it.

:that he has no right to direct the affairs of Brent's life,

Agreed, But what if Brent is a psychotic killer stalking Don Hyatt? What if Brent killed Don Hyatt? We would want government to step in and imprison or kill Brent right? :wink: This costs money. Means taxes

:that he has no right to interfere with the parent/child relationship in Brent's house,

Except, as you stated later in your post, in extreme curcumstances. If Brent is an abusive father and is beating their children, Social Services should step in to correct the situation. But this costs money (taxes). (personally I think Brent should pay for it) Plus he's already killed Hyatt! :D :wink:

:that all Brent's income is earned and that it all belongs to Brent,

Almost agree, but this is the point I am trying to make. For us to have government, we must pay and collect taxes. The problem is that government has a hard time distiguishing between what services are necessary, and which ones are not. We all want law, order, protection, social services, etc... And we don't mind paying our share of them. But when government continues to grow, and waste, the taxpayers still end up footing the bill. I do wonder what our taxes would be if we truly cut out the waste. :idea:

All of Brent's money is earned, and it all does belong to Brent - but Brent has to pay his taxes so we have government. He should however only be responsible for what's needed, and what's fair. (Plus he's gonna need a lot of $ for a good lawyer! Didn't you hear? he killed Hyatt?!) :D :wink:

:But, I'm the same officially designated Cary SOB that believes the law is supposed to apply to everyone, all the time, equally.

Exactly! (maybe not the SOB part) :wink:

Brent

10-29-2003, 06:21 PM

Agreed, But what if Brent is a psychotic killer stalking Don Hyatt? What if Brent killed Don Hyatt?
Oh, c'mon Don, you know I'm just a crackpot, not a psychotic killer. Anyway, I'm stalking Ken, not Don. :)

Except, as you stated later in your post, in extreme curcumstances. If Brent is an abusive father and is beating their children, Social Services should step in to correct the situation. But this costs money (taxes). (personally I think Brent should pay for it) Plus he's already killed Hyatt!
Man, I'm getting worse by the minute! My teenager will tell you I'm out of it, but not abusive. Besides, as of noon today, Hyatt is alive and well.

All of Brent's money is earned, and it all does belong to Brent - but Brent has to pay his taxes so we have government. He should however only be responsible for what's needed, and what's fair. (Plus he's gonna need a lot of $ for a good lawyer! Didn't you hear? he killed Hyatt?!)
Actually, all of Brent's money belongs to Brent's spouse. :) Am I supposed to be paying taxes? :) Even though Hyatt's alive and well, I still think maybe I'll hire Jackie Chiles. :)

I'm gonna go straighten myself out. Otherwise, John is going to have to pay for a larger jail. And somebody's gonna have to pay for this Web site, from what I heard happened to Hyatt.

Don

10-29-2003, 06:44 PM

Oh, c'mon Don, you know I'm just a crackpot, not a psychotic killer. Anyway, I'm stalking Ken, not Don. :)

That's why we haven't heard from Ken lately! :wink:

Except, as you stated later in your post, in extreme curcumstances. If Brent is an abusive father and is beating their children, Social Services should step in to correct the situation. But this costs money (taxes). (personally I think Brent should pay for it) Plus he's already killed Hyatt!
Man, I'm getting worse by the minute! My teenager will tell you I'm out of it, but not abusive. Besides, as of noon today, Hyatt is alive and well.

All of Brent's money is earned, and it all does belong to Brent - but Brent has to pay his taxes so we have government. He should however only be responsible for what's needed, and what's fair. (Plus he's gonna need a lot of $ for a good lawyer! Didn't you hear? he killed Hyatt?!)
Actually, all of Brent's money belongs to Brent's spouse. :) Am I supposed to be paying taxes? :) Even though Hyatt's alive and well, I still think maybe I'll hire Jackie Chiles. :)

I'm gonna go straighten myself out. Otherwise, John is going to have to pay for a larger jail. And somebody's gonna have to pay for this Web site, from what I heard happened to Hyatt.[/quote]

We could lobby council to fund the site. It is providing a much needed service to the community and clearly there is a need for this type of forum in Cary. This could be another division of Parks, Rec, and Cultural resources. Waddaya think? :wink: :wink: :wink: (Loads of sarcasm!)

Glad ya had fun with it! Especially You Brent!!

Anonymous

11-01-2003, 11:23 AM

Don't worry Don! John is all in favor of prisons and asylums in order to protect society!

Especially when those prisons are used to house convicted politicians. OUCH!

Wuptdo

03-24-2005, 12:02 PM

Ok, this story is the main feature of the MSM. Brought it back to the top because of the politics that have gone into this case. A few stories:

http://www.nbc17.com/news/4309604/detail.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,151381,00.html

http://www.newsobserver.com/

The media frenzy on this story is out of control. Can't add another poll, but what are your all thoughts on this issues these days?

Wuptdo B-)

kellyc

03-24-2005, 12:05 PM

Anonymous

03-24-2005, 12:13 PM

Laurie

03-24-2005, 01:00 PM

Starving a helpless person to death over a period of 10 days, two weeks or more is not an act of compassion.
Laurie

I will reiterate my previous statement. I asked Brent last night when this story came on the news to promise to never starve me to death. How completely barbaric.

Wuptdo

03-24-2005, 01:17 PM

Here is some info for "living wills" in North Carolina:

http://www.uslegalforms.com/livingwills/north-carolina-living-will-forms.htm

Laurie - your post above - Ditto!

Wuptdo

Don

03-24-2005, 01:46 PM

The problem I have is that we don't know for sure if SHE wants to die. It seems more to me that it's her husband that wants this. AND he does have an "out" so to speak. He can DIVORCE her and "get on with his life". But he has financial motives for not doing this.

Karen

I wanted to bring these comments back - I believe Karen is 100% correct.

Laurie, total 110% agreement - starving her to death is indeed barbaric.

dhyatt

03-24-2005, 01:47 PM

I told my wife, Put a good UPS in place in case there is apower outage, and turn the TV to ESPN. I don't know if there is cable in heaven.

This is Denis by the way and my user account seems to be totally kaput

Denis,
I fixed your account but had to reset your password. I emailed to the details the email account you used to register. Everything should be OK now. Somehow you had changed to 'inactive' in the PHPBB Forums part of the site.

kellyc

03-24-2005, 02:13 PM

If my family left me in a vegitative state for that long I promise I would come back and haunt them for as long as I possibly could. I mean we are talking letting off fireworks in the bedroom at night type stuff too.

kellyc

03-24-2005, 02:21 PM

Schiavo not likely to experience a painful death, neurologists say

Thu Mar 24, 6:55 AM ET Top Stories - USATODAY.com

By Kathleen Fackelmann, USA TODAY

Terri Schiavo has had no food or water since Friday, which has led her parents and their supporters to complain that she could be experiencing a painful death. But neurologists on Wednesday said that based on court findings of her condition, her body gradually will shut down in a painless process that will lead to death.

The Florida woman suffered serious brain damage after her heart stopped in 1990, and she has been the focus of a protracted legal battle that reached a zenith on Friday, when her feeding tube was removed by court order.

In a process that could take days, weeks or longer, the lack of food and water will cause chemical imbalances that eventually will shut down major organs such as the kidneys, and that ultimately will trigger heart abnormalities or other fatal problems, says Roger Albin, a neurologist at the University of Michigan.

Florida courts have ruled that Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state, a condition caused by extensive damage to the cortex and other parts of the brain that are responsible for consciousness, higher thinking, memory or even sensations such as pain, hunger and thirst.

"She's not experiencing hunger - she's not experiencing anything," Albin says.

Patients in such a state don't get better because the body is unable to repair such a massive injury to the brain, says James Bernat, a neurologist at the Dartmouth Medical School in Hanover, N.H.

"If you're in a state like this for three months or more, you're chance of recovery is zero," Albin says.

That point is disputed by Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, who are battling Terri's husband, Michael Schiavo, to get Terri's feeding tube reinserted.

The condition is confusing because patients in a persistent vegetative state still have the use of a primitive part of the brain, the stem. The brain stem allows them to go through sleep-wake cycles, keeps them breathing and produces facial expressions that can make it look as though they are aware of their surroundings, Albin says.

But those movements are merely reflexes, says Bruce Sigsbee, a neurologist in Rockport, Maine.

Don

03-24-2005, 02:32 PM

I take issue with the words "not likely"

Karen

03-24-2005, 02:37 PM

Here's my thought...have you ever known anyone to say to a loved one
" If I am ever in a vegetative state, please dont pull the plug. Please do everything you can to keep me alive on a feeding tube? And keep my mind stuck in a body where I cant do anything.

Actually, yes Kelly, I have. I can think of 2 cases on the top of my head when I worked at Rex. They were patients of mine. The fear of death was so great to these people that they had all the legal documents in place to keep them alive at all costs. They held out the hope that eventually the doctors would be able to help them, even in a vegetative state. Personally I don't want that for myself, and I have all the legal documents in place to carry out my wishes. But in the cases of the patients above, it is their right to continue life as they see fit, feeding tubes and all. It's not my place, the doctor's place or the family's place to deny this request even if we all think it's a terrible choice. It's the person's choice.

In Terri's case this is what bothers me the most. There is no written or verbal LEGAL documentations of Terri's wishes. It is all hearsay from the husband and the family. I choose to err on the side of life in my opinion of this case without knowing for sure what she really wants, as I have stated before.

As far as a Living Will, or an Advanced Directive...if you don't have one GET ONE. One of the first things I looked for when treating a patient was the advanced directive. Important stuff to know seeing as I've had patients code on me before. 8O People having to make life and death decisions occur on a daily basis due to the lack of Living Wills. This case just happens to have national attention.

Karen

edited for spelling

Laurie

03-24-2005, 03:07 PM

Schiavo not likely to experience a painful death, neurologists say
But neurologists on Wednesday said that based on court findings of her condition, her body gradually will shut down in a painless process that will lead to death....

Florida courts have ruled that Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state, a condition caused by extensive damage to the cortex and other parts of the brain that are responsible for consciousness, higher thinking, memory or even sensations such as pain, hunger and thirst....

"She's not experiencing hunger - she's not experiencing anything," Albin says....

But those movements are merely reflexes, says Bruce Sigsbee, a neurologist in Rockport, Maine.

Are these the same medical professionals that said until just very recently that newborn babies did not experience pain? They did circumcisions and other procedures on newborns without anesthesia.

The truth is that they don't know. They also don't know Terri's wishes. Her parents and brother are ready, willing and able to take care of her. Starving someone is not the same as removing a respirator. Still barbaric.

kellyc

03-24-2005, 03:30 PM

Thats fine. Different strokes for different folks and not an issue that you are likely to convince anyone to change their minds on.

washere

03-24-2005, 08:00 PM

Are these the same medical professionals that said until just very recently that newborn babies did not experience pain? They did circumcisions and other procedures on newborns without anesthesia.
How true. Quick aside, circ-ing is a whole socio-political issue unto itself these days. You wouldn't believe how nuts people get over foreskin! "No-circ" (the international group against circumcision) is actually based in Raleigh.

But anyway, what a sad, sad situation. I'll reserve judgement personally. I'm kinda with Laurie though. If she didn't want to exist in this state, so be it. But letting her starve to death is horrible.

At one point when I was pregnant with Jack, I didn't eat or drink anything for 4 days. I'll tell ya, there's nothing "peaceful" about it. I can only discribe it as complete and utter misery. You get awfully hungry and thirsty, but after a couple days you're too tired to eat anyway. Yep, misery is a darn good word for it.

Like I said before, I don't know what I think about whether she should live or be allowed to die (IF that's really what she wanted). I am a little disturbed that Congress thought it was appropriate to get involved in this case.

I can't escape the fact that we treat dogs with no hope for recovery in a much more humane way than people...

Lurkie

03-24-2005, 08:32 PM

Those who wish to be maintained indefinately in a persistent vegetative state, please sign in below.

Laurie

03-24-2005, 10:03 PM

Those who want to make ridiculous statements, sign in above.

Wuptdo

03-29-2005, 07:04 PM

Why does he always show up?

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050329/D894SE8G0.html

This man can't stand not being in the limelight. Sorry folks, but the opportunism I see with this man sickens me. :evil:

I pulled this off another blog, it seemed to fit my feelings toward this man:

Jesse Jackson is a media whore, no matter what side of the issue he's on. His entire agenda consists of "Look at me! Look at me!"

Wuptdo

Laurie

03-31-2005, 12:50 PM

It is an amazing testament to Terri's will to live that she was able to go 13 days without food and water before finally succumbing. They started giving her morphine last week to ease any 'discomfort'.

"When the Son of man comes in his glory ... Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another ... Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ... 'inherit the kingdom prepared for you ... for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink.' ... Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?' ... And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink.' ... Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty ... and did not minister to thee?' Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:31-46