Town Council Retreat

[Brent]

This year's Cary Town Council retreat will be held Friday March 16 - Sunday March 18 in Wilmington.

This year, county commissioners and board of education are invited to participate in part of the council's retreat.

This is a public meeting, open to the public. Typically, a few developer representatives attend, and sometimes, a few of us ordinary citizens attend.

I would very much like to see a good crowd of ordinary citizens attend. We're allowed only to sit and listen, but I guarantee that you'll still find the experience very enlightening.

I'm sure that Cary's staff and elected officials also would appreciate having a good crowd of ordinary citizens attend (after all, the town's #1 item on its statement of values is "Our organization exists to serve our citizens. We will be open, ensure access, encourage involvement and be accountable to our citizens").

Please consider attending all or part of the retreat if you can. Details at http://www.townofcary.org/agenda/worksessionagendas/020507retreatmins.htm . If you're going, just let town clerk Sue Rowland know so that she can ensure that there are enough chairs.

Hope to see you there!

[d4vendel]

Trust me, I "get" how a retreat needs to be removed from a person's normal place of business so that the focus can be on the business at hand without all of the normal day to day distractions.

That being said, can't these folks lock themselves into a local hotel and ballroom for the weekend? Does having a public meeting that is 143 miles away from my home (2 hr 20 minutes each way) really fit "Our organization exists to serve our citizens. We will be open, ensure access, encourage involvement and be accountable to our citizens"?

My options are to drive 4 hours each day for three days (858 miles total) or to spring for a hotel room / meals / etc. for 2 overnight stays in Wilmington with only one 4 hour, 286 mile round trip. I think that flies in the face of the "open, ensure access, encourage involvement" criteria of the Town's #1 vision statement to the point of making the vision statement meaningless.

"Open to the public" should be the public, not just those of us who can afford to travel to another city to attend a "Town" meeting.

[DarylB]

Trust me, I "get" how a retreat needs to be removed from a person's normal place of business so that the focus can be on the business at hand without all of the normal day to day distractions.

That being said, can't these folks lock themselves into a local hotel and ballroom for the weekend? Does having a public meeting that is 143 miles away from my home (2 hr 20 minutes each way) really fit "Our organization exists to serve our citizens. We will be open, ensure access, encourage involvement and be accountable to our citizens"?

My options are to drive 4 hours each day for three days (858 miles total) or to spring for a hotel room / meals / etc. for 2 overnight stays in Wilmington with only one 4 hour, 286 mile round trip. I think that flies in the face of the "open, ensure access, encourage involvement" criteria of the Town's #1 vision statement to the point of making the vision statement meaningless.

"Open to the public" should be the public, not just those of us who can afford to travel to another city to attend a "Town" meeting.

Or maybe just find out which busses WCPSS has got taking kids to school in Wilmington, and hitch a ride, since it seems they've got long distance transportation down to an artform....
The Wake County Public Shuffle System... next year, bullet trains!

[kirtl]

Are there going to be any C-TRAN buses going back and forth to our public meeting? I would think it's the least the can be done, since it needs to be held out of town.
:-D

[dhyatt]

Are there going to be any C-TRAN buses going back and forth to our public meeting? I would think it's the least the can be done, since it needs to be held out of town.
:-D

You know kirtl, for a first post, that ain't half bad. ;-) Maybe one of us should ask that question at the next Public Speaks Out :-)

[d4vendel]

Are there going to be any C-TRAN buses going back and forth to our public meeting? I would think it's the least the can be done, since it needs to be held out of town.
:-D

Excellent first post, kirtl! Welcome to Cary Politics!

To keep it in perspective, the current GSA reimbursement rate for use of your personal car for travel is currently 48.5 cents per mile. Federal per diem rates for Wilmington are $130 a day for each full day.

Since rooms at the Hilton start at $169 a night for that weekend, I doubt that many citizens would be staying there. If you can get the government rate, it goes down to $81.00 a night (military / Federal Government ID required).

Just how much is this retreat costing the taxpayers of Cary? Retreats are valuable tools and I don't so much have a problem with the expense as I do the shutting out of most of citizens of Cary from being able to participate.

Oh, and don't forget that if you want to observe the entire "public" meeting, you'll also have to take a Friday off of work so that you can be in Wilmington for the Friday afternoon meetings.....

Lock the council and staff in the Embassy Suites off of Harrison Avenue for the weekend and save us a ton in travel costs and give the citizens of Cary more of an opportunity to participate!


- David F.

[Wuptdo]

D4vendel - agreed, good points. Plus Embassy Suites has a great lunch time buffet for only $8.00! :wink: :wink:

Heck, I was even thinking my communities little clubhouse would be perfect for a retreat, and it is only $75 per day to outside organizations.

Oh well!

Wuptdo B-)

[DarylB]

D4vendel - agreed, good points. Plus Embassy Suites has a great lunch time buffet for only $8.00! :wink: :wink:

Heck, I was even thinking my communities little clubhouse would be perfect for a retreat, and it is only $75 per day to outside organizations.

Oh well!

Wuptdo B-)

I was thinking maybe they could get Los Tres Magueyes to cater the event, since they have already spent the time and effort catering to Diamante......

[Brent]

David,

Excellent point. It does seem like the staff's/council's choices about retreat venue don't uphold the town's values very well (another town value is "We are cost conscious. We spend public funds responsibly and effectively to ensure the Town’s short and long term financial strength").

It is definitely a fair question as to why the staff/council believes that they need to retreat to Pinehurst, or Wilmington. Perhaps staff/council should re-examine the town's values.

It would be great if they discovered that going to Wilmington did NOT deter the public from attending!

[d4vendel]

It would be great if they discovered that going to Wilmington did NOT deter the public from attending!

I disagree. That would only give them validation that they can hold their retreat anywhere they want at whatever expense to the taxpayers and the addedd expense to citizens that what to be part of the process and people will still come. I would rather see the citizens of Cary say, "Are you nuts?!?!" and have no citizens attend.

I emailed your original posting and my follow-up to the Council and Bill Coleman so that the "I don't look at Cary Politics" excuse is invalid. I'll let you know if there are any responses.

[kellyc]

It would be great if they discovered that going to Wilmington did NOT deter the public from attending!

I disagree. That would only give them validation that they can hold their retreat anywhere they want at whatever expense to the taxpayers and the addedd expense to citizens that what to be part of the process and people will still come. I would rather see the citizens of Cary say, "Are you nuts?!?!" and have no citizens attend.

I emailed your original posting and my follow-up to the Council and Bill Coleman so that the "I don't look at Cary Politics" excuse is invalid. I'll let you know if there are any responses.

David

I'm with Brent on this one. I went to the last retreat at Pinehurst. One of the things about going to the retreat is that almost everyone was relaxed. During the meetings there was NO pandering to cameras. It was a matter of getting ideas on the table and working thru them. When I went last year I really enjoyed it, and was able to get my head wrapped around things that would benefit me on P&Z and the TCRC. Driving 2 hours in both directions is really not that big of a deal, and you can find a hotel in Wilmington for a pretty decent price. Heck we could all probably rent a house at Wrightsville Beach and paint the town green. Who knows perhaps Cary Politics could throw a party Saturday night?

[d4vendel]

Sorry to disagree. Expecting citizens to travel 4 hours a day or pony up for accommodations to attend an "open" Town meeting is just arrogant. We all say that we want people to be more involved and "plugged-in" to the process. Erecting barriers to that process is not the way to make it happen.

If the want to have a retreat that is closed - they can have it anywhere the want (even thought that would break the open meetings law). When it is "open" to the citizens of Cary, it should not be 2 and half hours away.

- David F

[DarylB]

Sorry to disagree. Expecting citizens to travel 4 hours a day or pony up for accommodations to attend an "open" Town meeting is just arrogant. We all say that we want people to be more involved and "plugged-in" to the process. Erecting barriers to that process is not the way to make it happen.

If the want to have a retreat that is closed - they can have it anywhere the want (even thought that would break the open meetings law). When it is "open" to the citizens of Cary, it should not be 2 and half hours away.

- David F

Gotta go with David on this issue. This council has tried every avenue available to agrandize itself and make it more distant from the public it is supposedly serving. Instead, it continues to increase its own self-servedness. Bad form on the part of this council, and not a real surprise. Their developer friends will not endure nearly the hardship as would an ordinary, but involved, citizen. That's by design.

[d4vendel]

Their developer friends will not endure nearly the hardship as would an ordinary, but involved, citizen. That's by design.

I sure any developer attending will write the entire weekend off as a business expense - and so they should!

- David F.

[johnb]

Since my military drill for March is the weekend before this council retreat I have to say I'm up for a trip to Wilmington.


We need T shirts.

"Nels was against the Aquatics Palace before he was for the Aquatics Palace"

"Jennifer: Add Water - Instant Obscenity"

[Brent]

Greetings from the Town Council retreat in Wilmington. I've been here for the entire thing; it finishes later today (full agenda here: http://www.townofcary.org/agenda/2007retreatagenda.htm). For most of the time, I have been the sole citizen observer present (in addition to a Cary News reporter who has been here the entire time, and a couple of other folks who have been in and out).

It has been most enlightening. I, of course, took copious notes.

Yesterday Ernie remarked that this was the first time in 20+ years that they had "received grief" from citizens for holding the retreat so far away (?). He then introduced the mayor of Wilmington, who was happy to have us and our money. :D

[DarylB]

The Mayor of Wilmington had best watch his back, I do suspect that Ernie is looking for some beachfront property to involuntarily annex into the realm of Cary by eminent domain (the REAL purpose behind having the "retreat" in Wilmington! Here's hoping Wilmington-ites like (or can at least tolerate) beige!
:ky: :sign5:

[d4vendel]

Yesterday Ernie remarked that this was the first time in 20+ years that they had "received grief" from citizens for holding the retreat so far away (?). He then introduced the mayor of Wilmington, who was happy to have us and our money. :D

I am so glad to know that asking why it is necessary for our illustrious council meet somewhere other than their own multi-million dollar complex that was paid for by the tax payers of Cary is "giving them grief."

After all, we are just the people they serve. No need to make things convenient for us.

And how appropriate was it that this retreat occurred during "Sunshine Week?"

- David F.

[JoeCiulla]

Greetings from the Town Council retreat in Wilmington. I've been here for the entire thing; it finishes later today (full agenda here: http://www.townofcary.org/agenda/2007retreatagenda.htm). For most of the time, I have been the sole citizen observer present (in addition to a Cary News reporter who has been here the entire time, and a couple of other folks who have been in and out).

It has been most enlightening. I, of course, took copious notes.

Yesterday Ernie remarked that this was the first time in 20+ years that they had "received grief" from citizens for holding the retreat so far away (?). He then introduced the mayor of Wilmington, who was happy to have us and our money. :D
Brent,
I'm curious, were any of Cary's finest developers able to attend? Also, if you have notes in electronic form I'd love to see them.
Joe

[Brent]

I am so glad to know that asking why it is necessary for our illustrious council meet somewhere other than their own multi-million dollar complex that was paid for by the tax payers of Cary is "giving them grief."

After all, we are just the people they serve. No need to make things convenient for us.

Hear, hear. And what about that pesky #1 value to encourage citizen involvement, and that pesky org chart that shows citizens at the top? I would like them to move the retreat locally to see if more citizens show up to listen (I bet that more would).


And how appropriate was it that this retreat occurred during "Sunshine Week?"

Good observation. Sunshine can be pretty bright; I guess they wanted to get away from those UV rays or something.

[Brent]

Brent,
I'm curious, were any of Cary's finest developers able to attend?

The usual contingent of developers did not show this time, at least not during the meetings. Had some economic development folks and a transportation consultant.


Also, if you have notes in electronic form I'd love to see them.

Not yet...I used good old-fashioned paper & pen, but hope to transcribe them and will be happy to post highlights. You also should expect a story in the Cary News; Beth Hatcher took even more copious notes than I did.

[MattD]

Brent,
I'm curious, were any of Cary's finest developers able to attend?

The usual contingent of developers did not show this time, at least not during the meetings. Had some economic development folks and a transportation consultant.


Also, if you have notes in electronic form I'd love to see them.

Not yet...I used good old-fashioned paper & pen, but hope to transcribe them and will be happy to post highlights. You also should expect a story in the Cary News; Beth Hatcher took even more copious notes than I did.

Brent - tick tock! Curious minds want to know!!

[Wuptdo]

Matt wrote:

Brent - tick tock! Curious minds want to know!!

Gee Matt, I thought since you are Julie, Nels, and Ervin's "handler" that they would of already reported to you????? :wink: :wink:

Wuptdo B-)

[Brent]

Brent - tick tock! Curious minds want to know!!

Curious minds who really want to know should have attended the retreat.

[MattD]

Brent - tick tock! Curious minds want to know!!

Curious minds who really want to know should have attended the retreat.

Let's see - spend my birthday weeked with my family :occasion4: OR hang out with you in a hotel... decisions, decisions! :wink:

[Brent]

Brent - tick tock! Curious minds want to know!!

Curious minds who really want to know should have attended the retreat.

Let's see - spend my birthday weeked with my family :occasion4: OR hang out with you in a hotel... decisions, decisions! :wink:

Happy Birthday!

But don't forget, you also could have hung out in that hotel with Town Staff! :-D

[Rono]

But don't forget, you also could have hung out in that hotel with Town Staff!

This sounds like a birthday spanking to me!

[d4vendel]

After reading the hard-hitting pieces done by the Cary News (sarcasm off), I am anxiously awaiting your report on the retreat.

- David F.

[Brent]

After reading the hard-hitting pieces done by the Cary News (sarcasm off), I am anxiously awaiting your report on the retreat.

- David F.

I was quite surprised by the brevity and glossing over of what was printed in the Cary News. There were plenty of stories to be told and headlines to be had.

Oh, well, as usual, I guess we'll have to look to Cary Politics for the real story. And I promise, I will get the real story, or at least those highlights/headlines, as soon as I can.

Do you think that people who subscribe the the town's e-mail list might want to know, too? It turns out that the town's own PSAs don't always tell the entire story. 8-O

[d4vendel]

After reading the hard-hitting pieces done by the Cary News (sarcasm off), I am anxiously awaiting your report on the retreat.

- David F.

I was quite surprised by the brevity and glossing over of what was printed in the Cary News. There were plenty of stories to be told and headlines to be had.

Oh, well, as usual, I guess we'll have to look to Cary Politics for the real story. And I promise, I will get the real story, or at least those highlights/headlines, as soon as I can.

Do you think that people who subscribe the the town's e-mail list might want to know, too? It turns out that the town's own PSAs don't always tell the entire story. 8-O

If the Cary News was still subscription based, I would have dropped it by now. The only reason I read it is because it gets tossed in with my News and Disturber each Wednesday. There is rarely any "news" in it these days. The most column inches seem to given to local sports. Since I have no children in the school system, this holds no interest for me. The Police Blotter and the LTEs are about the only two things that hold my attention.

I am shocked that a reporter spent 3 days with the council and only came away with the fluff pieces we saw in the paper.

Just my 2 cents..

David F.

[JoeCiulla]

Sounds like a good opportunity for someone to publish a rebuttal on what really happened in Wilimington.

[Brent]

Total cost for the retreat is now in: $15,126.80

Details from Beth Hatcher at SWakechat: http://blogs.newsobserver.com/swakechat/

[Brent]

Sounds like a good opportunity for someone to publish a rebuttal on what really happened in Wilimington.

OK, here is the first in a series of my notes from the Town Council retreat (warning: long post).

Blue bold are items I deemed particularly significant.

Red italics denote my own editorial comments.

School Board Presentation (Del Burns)

 [see hardcopy slides]
 Patti: 128K students now [demographics in slides], expect 136K next year (+8K)
 Eleanor: stereotypes about Cary/Cary residents generally wrong; what’s true is (1) acknowledge past; (2) eye on future/planning; (3) appreciate where we are now. Thanks for bond support resolution.
 Del: Replacing a teacher costs $16K.
 WCPSS stats:
o 867 sq. mi county
o 147 schools (154 soon)
o 17K+ employees
o area superintendents have approx. 20K kids
o $1.1B operating budget
o $0.9B capital budget
o [see demographics on slide]
o white % decreasing; F&R increasing; special ed. Steady
o Wake Co. growing by 68 citizens per day
o Median income increasing, but F&R increasing too
o 18% of kids AG; state funds AG only at 4% of kids level
o In 2000, had 764 limited English proficiency; this year we have >10K
 Jen: School for exceptional learners? Fairfax Co. does this. Del: Just trying to get new schools up period.
 Jen: Fairfax Co. has schools that do ½ day English; ½ day another language. Could we do that? Del: No. 125 languages spoken in Wake Co. Bajorek: ToC solid waste division alone has 5 languages.
 Marla: w/ special ed, AG, etc., how does class size affect things? Del: very important; state sets maximum class size (K-3: 24; 4-9: 29; 10-12: 32). Staff development budget 1%.
 Jen: Sounds like you would rather mix special ed., AG, etc. all together. Correct? Del: Not exactly. Pull out AG more often, etc. Limited resources.
 Patti: Thanks for support on not increasing size. Not a silver bullet.
 Erv: Only 1 hour left. Need to figure out how we work together. Don’t want to stop presentation, but this is valuable time; let’s have the discussion
 Del: “A lot of growth in Cary, and it’s continuing”
 Del: “We’re doing reassignment only because of growth”
 Safety concerns: Issues at Green Hope HS (car hit kids); appreciate Cary’s support. Discouraging drop-off at Carpenter. Consider carpool lanes.
 Ernie: Over the years, Cary has been “too” involved in schools, then not involved in schools. 15 schools in Cary area in last several years.
 Del: That is approximately 15K – 18K seats.
 Ernie: What can we do to help increase # of seats? Used to have impact fees. What can we do to help increase capacity (ref. Cary Park deal)
 Jen: What are school dynamics/needs in Cary/ Want kids educated closer to home.
 Del: New growth projection model adds info from model @ NCSU to county’s projections.
 Del: Large parcels of land not available (the ones that are are owned by developers and hence not really available).
 Erv: What is going on in communities in Wake Co. that is good that helps WCPSS manage growth? Del: We don’t manage growth. Our $ controlled by WCC.
 Patti: Cary Park deal was huge. Land available at better cost, better land to build on.
 Patti: Need to identify land early and set it aside or encourage developers to partner to make land available
 Nels: We have $13M in our school account (from prior APFO) – why can’t we partner in acquiring land for schools?
 Ernie: We did 53 acres. Is that right amount for elementary/middle school?
Scott: $2.5M in bank today. Ultimately $8.5M at buildout.
 Erv: Cary Park deserves discussion. Developer agreements there worked well. How can we use that example and replicate it county-wide? Need to act responsibly in approving development. Land banking for schools is not a new idea. Need to pursue land banking of large tracts but if Cary does this alone, it’s detrimental to Cary.
 Jack: We want to talk about cooperation. How do we get past appearances that we’re not working together? (Cary Park delay was because developer wanted reserved seats for neighborhood; WCPSS didn’t want that). Can’t have “sacred cows”/absolutes. Increasing class size by 1 seems simple/reasonable but WCPSS wants no part of it. No one wants to talk about the 800-pound gorilla.
 Patti: We’ll talk about this if you want (work session suggested). Cary Park was huge. Use it as shining example
 Patti: There are no sacred cows any more.
 Eleanor: It’s not bad if only Cary does land banking. That’s leadership, and Cary gets schools.
 Erv: The land banking came as a threat of an APF. As we develop land, we need to discuss how we responsibly reserve land for schools.
 Erv: Standard answer is Cary doesn’t govern schools; WCPSS doesn’t manage growth; WCC doesn’t deal with schools, just the $. That’s suboptimal; we all need to expand beyond our lines to work together.
 Bill/Jeff: We have authority to reserve land for schools. Land can be reserved for 18 months for WCPSS to purchase. Problem is that it requires a master plan that shows where schools should go, just like we do with parks, etc.; and once you have the plan, the land becomes much more valuable and harder to purchase.
 Nels: We should have both ToC & WCPSS investigate what was good and bad with land banking and then update our ordinances/policies.
 Jen: Works only if all munis cooperate
 Julie: Has WCPSS looked at Wake Co. buildout and where schools will be needed at buildout?
 Patti: We’d like to have that discussion, but not all munis are willing to. You – Cary – should take leadership and involve other munis.
 Julie: We need WCCs and others to come to the table. We can’t look only at how Cary can land bank. Where will the MYR schools for Cary families be if we don’t get more schools, and where are the specific sites where land needs to be reserved for schools?
 Del: ALL new schools will by MYR. Amberly, Laura Lee (?) Park [& one other] all will be MYR. And we still need 9 more schools just to catch up.
 Julie: So will existing schools be converted to MYR?
 Patti: No PLANS to do so; no guarantee we won’t.
 Julie: Need published policy – e.g., % over capacity that would trigger MYR. Council could consider this when approving development.
 Patti: We’re working on that [but won’t say when they’ll have it]
 Marla: Eleanor said we’ve got it just right. But Cary citizens don’t think so .They make the connection between development approvals and school capacity issues. Our citizens expect us to be part of solution. I think Cary taking lead with WCCs, BoE, other munis is something we really should pursue.
 Bill: Julie, was your point to make school capacity a criterion for development approval? [Eek!]
 Julie: No; it’s for understanding as we make decisions. It could become a criterion, who knows?
 Bill: This starts moving toward APFs. [Eek!]
 Erv: Would BoE be open to recognizing that to get good land banking, BoE might have to relax the “no seats reserved for neighborhood” sacred cow is open to negotiation?
 Patti: Agreeable going forward. No sacred cows. [Yeah, right]
 Erv: I propose that we have staff study case studies that were good and what was bad and then lead a county-wide discussion (thinking Cary Park, but not limited to that)
 Ernie: Amplify the “county-wide” part. We should develop the successful model and lead other munis
 Bill: Cary Park wasn’t a great model – lots of back & forth. Prefer a general “best practices” model.
 Nels: We need to deal with the financing/$, not just plans for land. Other places have impact fees, special taxes, etc. Think outside the box.
 Marla: Don’t just tell the other munis, listen to their successes also.
 Bill: Actually, what we come up with might be more applicable to OTHER communities – Cary’s developable land rapidly decreasing; land banking opportunities may be few.
 Erv: Mayor’s task force encouraged BoE to put out the policies and #s to public so that consequences are understood
 Patti: We tried but it was perceived as threats. YOU (CTC) have to do it.
 Nels: When could staff have something back?
 Del: Don’t know. Bill: Jeff and I can work with WCPSS and WCC Planning staff to give you a timeline soon.
 Julie: Let’s have a follow-up joint work session, maybe quarterly.
 Ernie: Agree; let’s plan to do that when report comes back

[and all is well in Cary-WCPSSLand]

Check out the last few comments from staff and council. Note that the retreat was held more than 3 months ago. Has any follow-up occurred? I don't think so. That means we spent $15,000 for a lot of hot air.

[DarylB]

 Bill: Julie, was your point to make school capacity a criterion for development approval? [Eek!]
 Julie: No; it’s for understanding as we make decisions. It could become a criterion, who knows?

No? Did she really say No? Houston, I think we've got a problem!!!!

As they said during the unfolding crisis during the Apollo 13 service module explosion, "It's worse than we thought. We've got about 15 minutes of life support left". :(

[Wuptdo]

Off-topic:

I was in Wilmington a few weeks ago for Parent/Student Orientation at UNC-Wilmington. We were staying a converted hotel downtown, about two blocks off the waterfront. Anyway, was at a local watering hole and got involved in a conversation with several "players" about Wilmington's future. In their eyes, it is indeed bright, especially since they are going to be building a wonderful new convention center complex. When I mentioned the new one being built in Raleigh, they all had a good laugh. To sum it best, what does Raleigh have to offer? What does Wilmington have to offer: The Beach, waterfront district, Battleship, charter boats, etc. They all ready had their pitch ready and after listening to them, I think the Raleigh Convention Center will be gathering much dust.

Wuptdo B-)

[Rich]

While I am certainly not going to defend the how of the Convention Center, I will say that I think it can work. We have a lot of colleges in the area as well as government. And if anyone likes shows and conventions, it is government and the people who are after their money, followed closely by academia.

That is, of course, no guarantee of success, but there is a market.