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hollyL
07-16-2004, 07:43 PM
I met Mr. Hyatt last night briefly at the town meeting and I am glad to find a forum for discussions specific to Cary. I have lived in Cary about 4 years now and own a home. Since I've been here I've seen the town do some really...let's say...odd things. What happened this week was the straw that broke the camel's back for me.

Being the law abiding citizen that I am, before I put up my "candidate for office" yard sign I phoned the zoning department to see if I needed a permit. The nice lady told me that I would need to get a permit but before I could put the sign up the CANDIDATE had to fill out a registration and pay a $25.00 fee. During most of my discussion I have attempted to conceal my political identity if for nothing more than it really should matter/isn't anyone's business at the town hall. So just for the affect of saying "The White House" I asked her to please clarify. Was I to phone up President Bush and ask for him to complete this form? Her reply, "I'm just stating our policies". I thought this was pretty strange and that I probably had gotten some no-nothing on the phone so I called back. There was a little confusion about whether *I* needed a permit but the gentleman assured me that the candidate did. I said, "I tried the white house switch board and Pres. Bush is busy with some terrorist war thing or something so I don't think he can get the time to fill out this application". He didn't see my humor. Nevertheless, this is the law. I was directed to various forms, policies and ordinances (most of which are below) and waited to hear back from the Pres. Bush - I still haven't. I called both the GOP and Democratic headquarters and honestly I think they thought I was completely nuts.

One thing that I've noticed is that Cary has a bunch of laws that they don't make people follow or there really isn't a consequences if they break the law. Apparently this one is one of them. I asked why I had to go through all this trouble but my neighbor has a sign up. Why wasn't the city fining them and confiscating their signs? Why do people who attempt to obey the law have to pay and be hassled but those who don't just put their sign up and that's it? Oh course I received no answers to any of these questions.

Personally, I don't think it is any business of the town what I do on my own private property; however, I don't want my neighbor running a crack house and the other having signs all over their yards either. There has to be a balance and I believe that is precisely what is missing here.

Another thing that adds to all my frustration is this sort of "City on a Hill" type theory that the town has. They go around garbling up subdivision when the people who live there have no interest in being part of Cary. They set up soooooooooo illegal road blocks and harass law abiding citizens. Now apparently they think they can make any law they want even if the United States Supreme Court has already struck it down - on numerous occasions!

After my little speech during the public speaks out (see text/notes below). A nice gentleman from the zoning department came out and talked with me. He told me I really shouldn't have any concerns about this because it is not enforced on private property...only in public areas. He told me they had picked up around 300 signs in the past few weeks and that they give the candidate the opportunity to come pick them up...and they usually do...and then go put them right back up. I asked him which candidates had paid their $25, he did not know. I'm not sure how they know whose to pick up then :~)

The town also has the right to come onto your *private* property and take down what they deem illegal or improper signs. I guess we can add the fourth amendment to the list of constitutional rights the town of Cary doesn't have to abide by. I'm starting to think that Cary seceded from the union and no one told me. OK now I'm just complaining...

Frankly, I don't like people telling me what to do, especially the gov't. I really don't like it when they tell me to do something stupid. So I put together the little speech below and headed off to the "Public Speaks Out".

So...My goal in this pursuit is to:
1) Make a reasonable law that does not almost word-for-word violate ordinances already struck down by the US Supreme Court for violations of the 1st amendment free speech clause/Equal Protection Clause of the 14th amendment (and some other lawyer stuff like that)
2) Enforce the laws on the books *equally* to all people!

Following are my notes from the speech during speak out...it is not a transcript but I followed it pretty close. I also included some extra legal citations in case anyone asked me. There are also the referring docs - I put those in there because I didn't think anyone would believe me :~)


Cary Town Council Meeting
July 15, 2004 6:30 p.m.

"Pubic Speaks Out"

----being text----

On Monday I phoned the zoning department inquiring about a permit to post a political yard sign on my property (Vote for Bush or Kerry for example). I was informed by the employee that before I put the sign on my own, private property the candidate was required to fill out an application and pay a $25.00 fee to the Town of Cary. She also informed me of several restrictions on the time which I would be allowed to have such a sign in my yard and the number of signs. I was also informed that the town goes onto citizens' private property and removes signs that they determine are in violation of the ordinance.

The current ordinances regarding political signs in the Town of Cary are not only unduly burdensome to its citizens and political candidates but I believe in violation of the first amendment free speech clause.

In my opinion, the individual's right to participate in free elections and our individual freedoms, particularly free speech are the cornerstones of our democracy. Since signs are considered a form of communication, the authority of the Town of Cary is limited by the free speech provisions prescribed in our state and federal constitutions.

The Supreme Court has recognized that political signs have long been an "important and distinct medium of expression." Several courts of this country, including the United States Supreme Court, have repeatedly ruled that restrictions on political campaign signs such as requiring permits, charging fees and limitations on the times which you can post the signs are unconstitutional for example in City of Ladue v. Gilleo (1994) and Curry v. Prince George's County (1999).

The Supreme Court has said that the "communication by signs and posters is virtually pure speech" and that the First Amendment has "…its fullest and most urgent application precisely to the conduct of campaigns for political office."

Any mandatory fees for posting a political sign are essentially a tax on speech. Moreover depending on someone else to pay a fee for me before I can exercise my free speech is downright preposterous.

In closing, I respectfully request that the council promptly repeal all laws associated with the posting of political signs that require a permit, payment of any fees, limitations on the number of signs per issue or candidate, or limits the times which one can place the sign on private property.

----end text----

Referring docs/links:
Political Sign Application: http://www.townofcary.org/redistrict/politicalsignapp.pdf
Political Sign Regulations: http://www.townofcary.org/redistrict/politicalsigns.pdf
Sign Code Brochure: http://www.townofcary.org/depts/dsdept/signordinance/signbrochure.pdf
Sign Ordinance: http://www.townofcary.org/depts/dsdept/P&Z/ldo/chapter9.pdf
Sign Permit Application: http://www.townofcary.org/depts/dsdept/signpermit.pdf


1. City of Antioch v. Candidates' Outdoor Graphic Service, 557 F. Supp. 52 (N.D. Cal. 1982)
The court struck down an ordinance restricting the placement of political signs to a period of 60 days before an election. Embracing the general test of reasonableness for time, place and manner restrictions, discussed above, the court concluded that the time restriction there involved was not reasonable. Although the court found the interest significant, limiting political campaign signs to 60 days without similar limitation on other types of signs was held to be a fatal selective exclusion based on content.


2. City of Ladue v. Gilleo, 512 U.S. 43 (1994)
http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/92-1856.ZS.html
An ordinance of Petitioner City of Ladue bans all residential signs but those falling within one of ten exemptions, for the principal purpose of minimizing the visual clutter associated with such signs. Respondent Gilleo filed this action, alleging that the ordinance violated her right to free speech by prohibiting her from displaying a sign stating, "For Peace in the Gulf," from her home. The District Court found the ordinance unconstitutional, and the Court of Appeals affirmed, holding that the ordinance was a "content based" regulation, and that Ladue's substantial interests in enacting it were not sufficiently compelling to support such a restriction.

Supreme Court - Held: The ordinance violates a Ladue resident's right to free speech.

3. Connick v. Myers, 461 U.S. 138 (1983)
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/connick.html
Whether speech is of public concern is determined by the content, form, and context of a given statement, as revealed by the whole record. "Speech on public issues occupies the 'highest rung of the hierarchy of First Amendment values' and is entitled to special protection."

4. Craig v. Boren, 429 U.S. 190 (1976)
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=429&page=190
Argued that the law constituted invidious discrimination against males and violated the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment.

5. Curry v. Prince George's County, 33 F. Supp.2d 447 (D. Md. 1999)
http://lw.bna.com/lw/19990216/1964.htm
An ordinance of Prince George's County, Maryland prohibits the posting of "campaign signs" more than 45 days before an election. The signs of an unsuccessful primary candidate must be removed within 10 days after the primary; those of a candidate successful in the primary who posted before the primary may remain up until 10 days following the general election. The ordinance requires, before the signs are posted, that a permit be obtained and a fee paid.

The Court holds that on its face the ordinance, insofar as it imposes durational limitations on the posting of political campaign signs by individuals at their private residences, unconstitutionally impinges upon their First Amendment rights.

6. Dimas v. City of Warren, 939 F. Supp. 554 (E.D. Mich. 1996)
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/printer_friendly.pl?page=oh/cases/991769.htm
Ordinance deemed unconstitutional which prohibited posting of political yard signs earlier than forty-five days prior to any election, and ordering removal within seven days after.

7. Metromedia, Inc. v. San Diego, 453 U.S. 490 (1981)
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/printer_friendly.pl?page=us/453/490.html
Ordinance that substantially restricted both commercial and noncommercial off-site billboards as well as noncommercial on-site billboards held unconstitutional under the First Amendment.

8. Monitor Patriot Co. v. Roy, 401 U.S. 265 (1971)
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/printer_friendly.pl?page=us/401/265.html
The constitutional protection afforded political speech has its "fullest and most urgent application precisely to the conduct of campaigns for political office."

9. Outdoor Systems v. City of Lenexa, 67 F. Supp. 2d 1231 (D. Ks. 1999)
A municipal ordinance requiring that political campaign signs be removed within seven days after the election or campaign issue has been decided, was a content-based speech restriction not required to further a compelling state interest and narrowly tailored to achieve that end, and was invalid under First Amendment and its state constitutional counterpart. The court observed that other types of signs, either had no removal deadlines or had longer ones.


10. Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 596 -597, and nn. 44-45 (1980)
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/printer_friendly.pl?page=us/445/573.html

A special respect for individual liberty in the home has long been part of our culture and our law, see, e.g., Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 596-597

Since the New York Court of Appeals majority treated both cases as involving routine arrests with ample time to gain a warrant; the Supreme Court will do the same. This throws out any "exigent circumstances" argument that would justify a warrantless entry into a home.

11. Spence v. Washington, 418 U.S. 405, 406 , 409, 411 (1974)
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/printer_friendly.pl?page=us/418/405.html

In 1974, the Court overturned a prosecution by finding that the state statute was vague.
In Spence v. Washington, the Court held that the taping of a peace symbol to a flag was expressive conduct and thus protected by the First Amendment. In both of these later cases the Court expressly referred to the federal statute in a positive manner. Where this Court held that displaying a United States flag with a peace symbol attached to it was conduct protected by the First Amendment.

12. Whitton v. City of Gladstone, 54 F.3d 1400 (8th Cir. 1995)
Ordinance deemed unconstitutional which limited placement or erection of political signs from thirty days prior to the election to which the sign pertains until seven days after the election.



Political Signs By ROGER HUEBNER, General Counsel, IML JERRY ZARLEY, Paralegal, IML http://www.iml.org/legalsection/legal_q&a/2000/03march.htm

US Const, Am I and Const 1963, art 1, Sec. 5--freedom of speech protection for political campaign signs placed on private property http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/datafiles/1980s/op06258.htm

Rono
07-16-2004, 08:59 PM
Dear HollyL

First and foremost, after your 4 years livng in Cary and watching in wonderment, welcome to "Cary Politics"

Don Hyatt, web master, of this "Cary Politics" (this web site) I am sure will welcome you here as well.

Don did an interesting thing when he named this web site what he did. He made it so that yesterday you participated in "Cary Politics" in the public speaks out, then today just as any person in public can and should do, you took the time to "speak out" on Cary Politics.

Not only that, your message was backed with references, facts, and normal everyday homeowner, citiizen common sence and logic.

I will admit that I do not post here often, but I read things here on a regular basis.

There are good people here to chat and discuss with you all issues surrounding "Cary Politics"

While I won't speak for Don H the web master, I know enough others here to say for all of them "WELCOME TO CARY POLITICS. WE ARE ALL GLAD YOU ARE NOW INVOLVED"!

(Try cvommunicating with "Cathy" on this forum. by your homework of references, I think you two might just strike up great discussions!

Rono

Cathy
07-16-2004, 11:59 PM
Holly,

I was watching the Council meeting and saw your presentation. I was wishing that I could congratulate you on speaking up and saying what you did. It was great to watch! I don't think the Council members knew quite what to do with it. Before any of them (except Mike Joyce) will do anything to make the sign ordinance more sane, more people will need to make it a regular event to 'Speak Out' and tell them the ordinance is overboard.

Thank you for all of the links. You can be sure that I will be looking at them.

Cathy

hollyL
07-17-2004, 11:10 AM
Thanks to both of you (Rono and Cathy) for the welcome and feedback. When I was standing up there waiting I thought I was going to pass out! I believe I'm fairly good at writing letters but I'd never spoke before a Town Council like that before. I was pretty nervous!

My friend joked that she thought at least some of them were listening and one guy was actually writing...but then she realized what he was writing "eggs...milk...bread..."

I've had several people contact me regarding my statement so I am pleased about how it went.

I plan to send a follow up letter to the council. I will post it for you all too read also.

Holly

Cathy
07-17-2004, 08:57 PM
Holly,

I know the feeling.
You did very well though. I would not have thought that you were nervous. A little angry, (understandably) but the nervousness didn't show.

The Town of Cary needs to put an end to having it run like a great big HOA. That's what makes it look ridiculous to outsiders.

Cathy

hollyL
07-18-2004, 05:00 PM
I received a nice email from Councilmember Joyce thanking me for speaking at the town meeting. I thought this was especially considerate of him to do. I’m not sure whether he agreed with anything I said, but a public official taking the time to encourage public participation in the political process is quite nice to see.

kellyc
07-18-2004, 05:06 PM
Mike tends to be very honest and sincere with his emails. I suspect that he might agree with you on the sign ordinance.

Kelly

johnb
07-18-2004, 08:09 PM
One thing that I've noticed is that Cary has a bunch of laws that they don't make people follow or there really isn't a consequences if they break the law.

Yes, two of my personal favorites happen to be the permit needed to remove a driveway and the permit needed to remove trees above a certain trunk cicumference. :twisted:

Brent
07-18-2004, 08:31 PM
Holly,

I'll add my welcome to Cary Politics, for what it's worth (very little to nothing).

I heard your speech at "Public Speaks Out" the other night, also. It was outstanding. I hope you will pursue this issue until the Town backs down and changes their ordinances. Let me know if I can help.

In the meantime, put up the sign in your yard that you wanted to put up in the first place...and then put up one that says "Cary's Sign Laws Unconstitutional" or something like that. Maybe I'll put up one of those signs myself...

Keep up the good work!

johnb
07-18-2004, 09:01 PM
I wasn't going to put up a sign.

However, now I am tempted to put up a 'Dick Nixon for Congress' sign in my yard then send an email to the horses rears on the city council, Coleman, and Chief Windbag daring 'em to cite me. Or Nixon. Or maybe Brent Miller.

Brent
07-18-2004, 09:19 PM
John, they'll just tell you, "Please! Anyone but Crackpot Miller! Do you know how to get in touch with Mr. Nixon?" :lol:

Cathy
07-18-2004, 11:08 PM
I received a nice email from Councilmember Joyce thanking me for speaking at the town meeting. I thought this was especially considerate of him to do. I’m not sure whether he agreed with anything I said, but a public official taking the time to encourage public participation in the political process is quite nice to see.

Mike Joyce clearly stated in a previous Council meeting that he disagreed with the sign ordinance altogether, for the record and on camera.

Cathy

hollyL
07-19-2004, 11:34 AM
Holly,

In the meantime, put up the sign in your yard that you wanted to put up in the first place...and then put up one that says "Cary's Sign Laws Unconstitutional" or something like that. Maybe I'll put up one of those signs myself...

Keep up the good work!
I'm thinking about this sign...any recommendations on where I can get it made? http://nyxtechnology.com/holly/misc/keep_out.jpg I might have to adjust the colors though - they're kinda girly.

johnb
07-19-2004, 12:13 PM
How about:

Jack and Jennifer don't care for my sign!

hollyL
07-19-2004, 12:26 PM
I think maybe I need a few signs :~)

kellyc
07-19-2004, 12:36 PM
uh your only allowed one sign :-)

johnb
07-19-2004, 12:43 PM
I know one city council critter is too dim to realize she's an object of contempt and derision, but putting the RINO aside, I wonder if those who support nonsense such as this sign ordinance realize how petty they appear?

kellyc
07-19-2004, 12:53 PM
I think they truly believe that they are doing what is best for the town. Rightly or wrongly. The problem is that sometimes common sense is absent on all sides. Whether its on the council, the staff or even the folks running the business/politics. I think the council is a bit goofy, in that they focus on the business owner that might push the envelope, instead of the good that could come out of it. Kind of like the manager that has a problem empoyee and rather than deal with the individual, all of the employees suffer. I suspect the same applies to this.

Kelly

Cathy
07-19-2004, 02:00 PM
Holly,

In the meantime, put up the sign in your yard that you wanted to put up in the first place...and then put up one that says "Cary's Sign Laws Unconstitutional" or something like that. Maybe I'll put up one of those signs myself...

Keep up the good work!
I'm thinking about this sign...any recommendations on where I can get it made? http://nyxtechnology.com/holly/misc/keep_out.jpg I might have to adjust the colors though - they're kinda girly.

That is a GREAT sign Holly.
I'll bet Ron knows where to get it made. If you have to buy in quantity, it would be worth it to have them available for others to join the protest.

Cathy

Don
07-19-2004, 07:36 PM
I think they truly believe that they are doing what is best for the town. Rightly or wrongly. The problem is that sometimes common sense is absent on all sides. Whether its on the council, the staff or even the folks running the business/politics. I think the council is a bit goofy, in that they focus on the business owner that might push the envelope, instead of the good that could come out of it. Kind of like the manager that has a problem empoyee and rather than deal with the individual, all of the employees suffer. I suspect the same applies to this.

Kelly

I agree with the comment above, However, when input from citizen boards, business owners, and staff all support a change to the ordinance and council still chooses not to, something is wrong. Example, at the last council meeting an LDO ammendment was presented before council (wasn't the first time they saw it) that would allow a lighted sign - 2 sq. ft.- in store windows. It could say something like OPEN, WELCOME, or whatever the merchant could fit in that small place. P+Z reccomended approval by a vote of 8-2, TCRC supported the change and staff even reccomended approval. It failed mainly because council couldn't REGULATE what it said.

Don
07-19-2004, 07:38 PM
I wasn't going to put up a sign.

However, now I am tempted to put up a 'Dick Nixon for Congress' sign in my yard then send an email to the horses rears on the city council, Coleman, and Chief Windbag daring 'em to cite me. Or Nixon. Or maybe Brent Miller.

I have a Nels Roseland for Council sign.........Oh that reminds me!..... :wink:

Rono
07-19-2004, 08:20 PM
Great Sign Holly. The KEEP OUT thing is REALLY GREAT. I do know where we can have them printed. We should look for some donations to do so. Also, multiple colors cost more, but I do think that two colors (and the white back ground) could be done.

Any contributors here who want to help Holly change the sign ordinance?

Rono

Brent
07-20-2004, 07:59 AM
uh your only allowed one sign :-)

That would be one sign per candidate or issue. That could still be plenty of signs (I should know, I had 5 in my tiny little yard at one point last fall).

hollyL
07-20-2004, 11:50 AM
Sent this followup letter today (a few lines deleted for privacy reasons):

July 20, 2004
The Honorable Ernie McAlister

Dear Mayor McAlister:

This letter is a follow-up to my comments made during the “Public Speaks Out” portion of the Cary Town Council Meeting, July 15, 2004, regarding the Town of Cary political sign ordinances.

To briefly summarize: I requested that the Cary Town Council carefully evaluate the entirety of the Town of Cary ordinances referring to political signs. I asked that any ordinances which require fees for the posting of political signs be repealed. As well, all ordinances that overly restrict the number, size, or the timeframe a sign can remain on private property should be repealed in the interest of ensuring compliance with the free speech clause of the 1st Amendment. As you recall, I cited several court cases, including one heard by the United States Supreme Court that prohibits restrictions on time, size and fees associated with such signs.

After the meeting I was informed by a courteous employee of the Town of Cary that “this ordinance is really not enforced on private property”. I also received this same information from another town employee. This concerns me as a resident of Cary. As a citizen I believe that I am required to follow the laws of this city; I should not have to “guess” which ones I am required to follow. A Town employee stating that some laws are enforced and others are not creates considerable confusion for citizens. Furthermore, it is actually the candidates who follow the law which are ‘punished’ as they pay the $25.00 and, I speculate, receive the same treatment as those who do not. This is clearly not a good policy.

A town employee also told me that “several hundred” signs were picked up by the town of Cary in the last several weeks. It appears that perhaps these ordinances are being applied selectively. I would like to ask the council to request the town record all signs confiscated, their nature and place of confiscation. This will help to ensure that until these laws are reversed it is applied equally to all candidates and individuals.

I request you notify me of the action the council plans to take on this issue. Also, to better understand and evaluate the issue, I would appreciate your assistance in obtaining the following information:
1. All candidates who have registered and paid the $25.00 fee for the period Jan 2003 until this date.
2. All individuals (including candidates) who have received citations or warnings for any illegal signs for the period of January 2002 until this date.
3. Businesses which have received warnings, citations or had their signs removed by the city for the period of January 2003 until this date.
4. All citations, warnings or confiscation of signs on private property for the period of January 2003 until this date.

I would appreciate a reply to my letter within 15 days of receipt of this correspondence.

Please do not hesitate to contact me at the telephone number or email address above if you have questions regarding my request. Thank you for your dedicated service to our community.

Sincerely,

Cc: Councilmember Marla Dorrel
Councilmember Nels C. Roseland
Mayor Pro Tem Jack W. Smith
Councilmember Michael A. Joyce
Councilmember Julie Aberg Robison
Councilmember Jennifer Robinson
Adam Arnold, The Cary News

johnb
07-20-2004, 09:25 PM
I think they truly believe that they are doing what is best for the town.

I really hate hearing that used as an excuse Kelly.

There were a lot of animals on trial at Nuremberg for doing what they thought was best for Germany and the world. Is that an excuse? Intentions mean NOTHING. I don't give a **** whether the cretins act the way they do because they're being bribed or because they think it's "best" for Cary.

I am only concerned with results, not intentions. If the result of their actions is to unecessarily infringe upon the rights of the citizens they and their intentions can catch the express train to hell.

How about if they put a little more worry into NOT being a bunch or horse's rears to their victims? Or perhaps NOT stealing from us to build their special interest payback projects for their friends (Aquatics Palace, Regency Park, etc...) ? Maybe they could even plan on obeying the law for a while and not hand out subsidies to quack politicians ('public'' campaign financing)? There are a lot of things they could do that would demonstrate they really do mean well, but those things are the results of the efforts of politicians who cherish freedom and don't believe in robbing from Peter to buy Paul's vote.

Cathy
07-20-2004, 10:29 PM
Holly,

After the meeting I was informed by a courteous employee of the Town of Cary that “this ordinance is really not enforced on private property”. I also received this same information from another town employee. This concerns me as a resident of Cary. As a citizen I believe that I am required to follow the laws of this city; I should not have to “guess” which ones I am required to follow. A Town employee stating that some laws are enforced and others are not creates considerable confusion for citizens. Furthermore, it is actually the candidates who follow the law which are ‘punished’ as they pay the $25.00 and, I speculate, receive the same treatment as those who do not. This is clearly not a good policy.

YeeeeHAW!!!...you GO girl!!!!

Cathy

Cathy
07-20-2004, 10:34 PM
RIP_SMASH_CRASH_SLASH_CRUNCH and BURNNN...... b-(

(the sound of John B attacking the rose colored glasses)

kellyc
07-21-2004, 07:20 AM
I think they truly believe that they are doing what is best for the town.

I really hate hearing that used as an excuse Kelly.

There were a lot of animals on trial at Nuremberg for doing what they thought was best for Germany and the world. Is that an excuse? Intentions mean NOTHING.

I agree that the excuse is not overly appealing, however I dont think any of our council people come close to comparing with the devils in Germany. I realize you are just trying to make a point.

It does get frustrating, but isnt that why people run for office? To help the town? If someone goes in and slashes the budget dont they do it beacuse they think that is what is best for the town?

Kelly

Brent
07-21-2004, 07:50 AM
Outstanding letter, Holly. I hope you will keep us posted on what you hear back.

Have you noticed that they confiscate (and then immediately give back) political signs, but they orange-sticker citizens' yard sale and lost puppy signs?

Also, unless things have changed, each candidate, upon filing, has to sign a statement with the Board of Elections that says that they're aware of and will comply with all sign ordinances.

kellyc
07-21-2004, 07:59 AM
RIP_SMASH_CRASH_SLASH_CRUNCH and BURNNN...... b-(

(the sound of John B attacking the rose colored glasses)

I guess trying to give people the benefit of the doubt, is somehow wrong in your eyes. Thats a shame. I guess its that glass is half full / half empty deal. In the grand scheme of things our council is pretty cool. We dont have the corruption that many other councils face, we dont have the bigotry.

You dont have to agree with them, as I very often dont. Having people with different opinions on the council is important, as very few people I know fit neatly in the republican or democrat box. But all of them believe that they are doing what is good for the city/citizens. Thats is what gets them in politics, and gets them to run for office.

Kelly

Cathy
07-21-2004, 09:32 AM
"I guess trying to give people the benefit of the doubt, is somehow wrong in your eyes."

No, it is not, and I did not even come close to saying that.

"We dont have the corruption that many other councils face, we dont have the bigotry."

The closer the politicians are to the citizens, and the more the citizens pay attention to what is going on, the less corruption you have. LESS, but not zero.

"But all of them believe that they are doing what is good for the city/citizens. Thats is what gets them in politics, and gets them to run for office."

SOME do....but not ALL of them get into politics for such altruistic reasons. It would be nice if it were true, but I don't believe that for a split second.

Kelly

Cathy

Don
07-21-2004, 01:03 PM
Have you noticed that they confiscate (and then immediately give back) political signs, but they orange-sticker citizens' yard sale and lost puppy signs?

Not exactly, you have to go dig them out of the back of the trucks at night........or so I heard. :wink:

hollyL
07-22-2004, 11:07 AM
The Oprah book of the month is late so I decided I would read up on some Town Council meeting minutes from the past and found a few interesting things. My comments in "[ ]".

REGULAR MEETING OF THE TOWN OF CARY, NORTH CAROLINA FEBRUARY 22, 2001
http://www.townofcary.org/agenda/councilmin01/cm022201.htm

"Mr. Roseland asked if levying the penalties [on political signs] will result in First Amendment violations. Mr. Henderson [Town attorney - apparently got his legal degree from Sally Struthers TV degree at home program.] responded that as long as the ordinance is on the books and the courts do not strike it down, it is strictly a policy matter. He stated Cary is on the cutting edge of what it can do, but he feels the Town is within its constitutional limits." ["cutting edge of what it can do" is secret code for totalitarianism btw]

"Mayor Lang stated he lobbies legislators on a regular basis, and these same legislators are being fined by the Town of Cary. He stated he has heard from district court judges [who received their law degrees by schooling not mail] who think Cary’s ordinance is illegal. He stated it puts Cary in a difficult position with the elected officials."

Also, a newspaper reporter contacted me and we spoke yesterday. Hopefully they will print the story. He has asked to have the photographer come and take my picture in front of my free speech - keep out Cary signs when I get them up next week. I've recommended the caption "Chick saves town on the brink of insanity from falling into the abyss!" Not sure if he is going to use that one though :~)

-holly

You can take my sign, but you will never take MY FREEDOM!
- William Wallace, Braveheart

Cathy
07-22-2004, 11:41 AM
Holly,

As someone who has read through years of Council meeting minutes looking for the political motivation behind forced annexation, I will tell you that it seems that the common policy of Staff and some Council members of the last four years or so (that is all I've read through) has been to push the limits of legality, if not downright cross it, and wait to see if anyone is paying attention. If no one makes a stink about things, they proceed. If confronted, like the previously declared "non-conforming" Cary business owners who challenged the Town legally, they back off and regroup for a future attempt to get their way.

Glen Lang's statements over the years were particularly incredible given the fact that he knew they were public record and he didn't seem to care. He must have been pretty confident that there weren't too many people paying attention to Council meetings or reading what what said. Or he thought most who did were too stupid to notice that there was something wrong with anything they said or did.
I hope the days of complacent trust in those running the Town are OVER.

Cathy

Brent
07-22-2004, 12:40 PM
Have you noticed that they confiscate (and then immediately give back) political signs, but they orange-sticker citizens' yard sale and lost puppy signs?

Not exactly, you have to go dig them out of the back of the trucks at night........or so I heard. :wink:

Well, yeah, but if they orange-stickered campaign signs, you would see some drastic changes.

johnb
07-22-2004, 12:46 PM
Lang epitomizes what is wrong with a lot if not most politicians. That being they're arrogant and they don't give a **** what the law says. They get into politics because they are confident in the belief that they should rule and we should obey them.

dhyatt
07-22-2004, 02:33 PM
Lang epitomizes what is wrong with a lot if not most politicians. That being they're arrogant and they don't give a **** what the law says. They get into politics because they are confident in the belief that they should rule and we should obey them.

I've become somewhat skeptical of any candidate that says "I just want to serve the people and do what I can to help..." Usually translates to "I know what's best for you so vote for me"

As my future campaign manager ;-), you have advance permission to slap me if I ever say "I just want to serve the people :-)"

hollyL
07-27-2004, 07:58 PM
I've got my yard signs up. Here's a look at them -->

http://www.thesethingsiknow.com/toc/images/bothEx.jpg
http://www.thesethingsiknow.com/toc/images/cu_speech2Ex.jpg
http://www.thesethingsiknow.com/toc/images/keepOutEx.jpg

I have one residential sign and one political sign on this issue.

-holly

Rono
07-27-2004, 08:21 PM
Great signs Holly!!!

Cathy
07-27-2004, 09:45 PM
Holly,

All I can say is WOW!!

You aren't pulling any punches.
I hope the sentiment catches fire in Cary!

You might want to send an email to Jennifer Weiss letting her know how unhappy you are with this sign issue. And attach your picture of the signs.

Cathy

johnb
07-28-2004, 01:27 AM
As my future campaign manager , you have advance permission to slap me if I ever say "I just want to serve the people "

Gotcha...and if you ever use a variation of "...(fill in some dumb@$$ leftwing gobbledegook)....FOR THE CHILDREN!!!" I will beat you senseless. Although Mrs Hyatt would probably say "Mission Accomplished" already.

Anonymous
07-28-2004, 04:28 PM
Just my 2 cents......

As far as signs go, all I want is various Real Estate signs not to have pictures of their realtors. Most of those people but the "ug" in ugly! :D

Wuptdo (in London Internet Cafe) B-)

Cathy
07-28-2004, 06:31 PM
Just my 2 cents......

As far as signs go, all I want is various Real Estate signs not to have pictures of their realtors. Most of those people but the "ug" in ugly! :D

Wuptdo (in London Internet Cafe) B-)

Take it up with the offending Real Estate Co's Wup.
And you could offer them your mug for the signs instead.

hollyL
07-29-2004, 07:02 PM
For those who didn't see the article in the Cary News today

http://thesethingsiknow.com/toc/CaryNewsArticle.htm

...BAD picture of me

-holly

Cathy
07-29-2004, 07:26 PM
I saw it, loved it, and think that you are probably worrying about that picture more than you should. Your signs that flanked you make a great picture!

The article was very interesting, and gave Town representatives lots of opportunity to make their case, so it was "fair and balanced".

I'm going to follow this issue with great interest. Thanks for bringing it out into the public light of day in such a great way, Holly!

Cathy

hollyL
07-29-2004, 07:48 PM
I think it is interesting how they are saying I am misinterpreting things. I've made a point to use *word for word* the ordinance/permit applications and documentation from the town's website.

It also says ..we don't restrict people as long as it is only one per candidate. What about size, color, time you can have them up etc.?

Strange thing is that the ordinance specifically states political signs "shall be located on private property with permission of the owner". This seems to restricts them to only private property. If they don't allow it on public property why would they only enforce it on public property? Doesn't make much sense to me.

Cathy
07-30-2004, 12:05 AM
Any ordinance that is that lengthy is guaranteed to be confusing.

When the writers spend too much time trying to cover ALL possible, however slight, chances of offending every possible aesthetic sensibility of "everyone who MAWH-TAWHZ, dear!" _ it ends up needing a lawyer to interpret it.


So you got you one, didn'cha!

Cathy

hollyL
07-30-2004, 11:41 AM
ABC11 should run a story on the 6:00 news tonight regarding the sign ordinance. They suprised me and showed up at my door, camera in hand, this morning 5 minutes after I got out of the shower. Needless to say I didn't let them point the camera at me!

Cathy
07-30-2004, 06:25 PM
I just saw the newscast.
I think they did a pretty good job of covering the controversy and took a minor shot at the ordinance. "...as long as it's balanced and in good taste."

I guess it's just so much fun to poke fun at Cary, and so easy to do, that ABC just couldn't resist.

Cathy

hollyL
07-30-2004, 06:49 PM
They still think they are focusing way too much on this $25. They are completely missing 90% of the issue. Looks like I need to get typing on another press release.

hollyL
07-30-2004, 08:04 PM
The mayor responded to me. Now he may think that he can trick me by putting 28 July on the letter but see there is a thing called a postmark that says when a letter was sent. Just so happens that he sent it the EXACT day the story ran in the paper!

In the letter he explains that he sent my letter to P&Z and legal for review. He then, after saying in the news article, "staff is gathering the materials" has the gull to say "direct a written public records request to the custodian of those records". Maybe he forgot staff was already gathering them. Maybe I should send him a copy of the interview.

So now I guess I have to send a letter to someone else...kinda thought the mayor could just pass it along for me...guess not! If I wasn't so positive about this I'd think he was either trying to blow me off or cause a delay for me in getting my information.

There has only been one councilmember (besides the letter from the Mayor induced by publicity) that has had the courtesy to respond to me and that is Joyce. He may or may not agree with me but at least he is trying. Because of this I am revoking my party line vote rule and would - yes it is true - vote for a republican (please don't tell my friends!)

kellyc
07-30-2004, 10:58 PM
The mayor responded to me. Now he may think that he can trick me by putting 28 July on the letter but see there is a thing called a postmark that says when a letter was sent. Just so happens that he sent it the EXACT day the story ran in the paper!

In the letter he explains that he sent my letter to P&Z and legal for review. He then, after saying in the news article, "staff is gathering the materials" has the gull to say "direct a written public records request to the custodian of those records". Maybe he forgot staff was already gathering them. Maybe I should send him a copy of the interview.

So now I guess I have to send a letter to someone else...kinda thought the mayor could just pass it along for me...guess not! If I wasn't so positive about this I'd think he was either trying to blow me off or cause a delay for me in getting my information.

There has only been one councilmember (besides the letter from the Mayor induced by publicity) that has had the courtesy to respond to me and that is Joyce. He may or may not agree with me but at least he is trying. Because of this I am revoking my party line vote rule and would - yes it is true - vote for a republican (please don't tell my friends!)

Whle I appreciate your fight, I think you need to take the Mayor for his word. Perhaps he did write the letter on the 28th. Perhaps it did just get out into the mail on Thursday. If he sent it from his home, then there is nothing wrong with what he did. I think you are grasping for straws on this point.

Ernie is a mayor that seems to have some common sense, even if he is a Republican. What is wrong with following what he asked you to do? Perhaps whomever the record keeper is will respond more favorably to a citizen than a politician. Sometimes thats how things work around here.

Kelly

hollyL
07-30-2004, 11:28 PM
I suppose you are right. It was really more in jest than some serious accusation that he was lying; at least that is not how I meant it. It is possible that he did send it earlier and probably not that important anyway.

It did say in the newspaper that "staff was gathering the information". That is why I was so confused as to why I had to send an additional letter with the same request. It seemed that they were already gathering it up for me. He could have just gave P&Z the letter but sure I'll go ahead and send another regardless. I'd think that if the Mayor requested something it would get more attention then a nobody like me but heck how knows.

johnb
07-31-2004, 12:00 AM
Holly,


It may be tepid praise, but it is genuine and it is this...Republicans might not be that bright but the little Donkeys are slobbering, knuckledragging intellectual troglodytes.

j

hollyL
07-31-2004, 12:26 AM
Everytime I see/hear "donkey" now all I can hear in my head is Al Sharpton saying "We are going to ride that doonkey all the way home..." Well he really yells it as opposed to saying it but you know what I mean.

Good article:
"Kerry's vision is remarkably unremarkable" - http://www.townhall.com/columnists/georgewill/gw20040729.shtml

kellyc
07-31-2004, 10:28 AM
I suppose you are right. It was really more in jest than some serious accusation that he was lying; at least that is not how I meant it. It is possible that he did send it earlier and probably not that important anyway.

It did say in the newspaper that "staff was gathering the information". That is why I was so confused as to why I had to send an additional letter with the same request. It seemed that they were already gathering it up for me. He could have just gave P&Z the letter but sure I'll go ahead and send another regardless. I'd think that if the Mayor requested something it would get more attention then a nobody like me but heck how knows.

I find it hard to believe, but often times I think staff looks at the council and the mayor with the same discontent as they look at us citizens. Give Ernie a chance, and trust him a wee bit....

Kelly