Can't Believe What I'm Reading Here!

[Don]

I am so angry right now I really don't know where to start.

It seems as if our Mayor Pro-Tem Jack Smith thinks council shouldn't have backed down in regards to auto repair uses in downtown and is quoted as saying such. I have sent him an email for an explanation and will refrain from assaults until I hear back from him. However, this is very upsetting to say the least.

Looking for thoughts.

[kellyc]

You have every right to be upset. It seems the town continues to screw this up at every turn. Why they dont sit down with the current businesses and start to brainstorm together is beyond me. Why does the concept of working together seem so alien?

Im starting to think you need to start looking for a second plot of land in Cary.

Kelly

My edit was to correct a grammer error :-(

[Karen]

Don,

My thoughts are not fit to print... :evil:

Karen

[johnb]

I told you months ago they wouldn't give up. They're pulling knives out a little quicker than I thought they would but, there they are.

When they get reorganized they will attack a subset of their intended victims. That will arouse less public outcry. They're hell bent to drive you guys out of Cary Don.

[dhyatt]

I am so angry right now I really don't know where to start.

It seems as if our Mayor Pro-Tem Jack Smith thinks council shouldn't have backed down in regards to auto repair uses in downtown and is quoted as saying such. I have sent him an email for an explanation and will refrain from assaults until I hear back from him. However, this is very upsetting to say the least.

Looking for thoughts.

I haven't made it through The Cary News yet. Where did you read these comments?

[Cathy]

Don,

I thought that statement from Jack was contemptuous!
He couldn't have said more clearly that all of the business that they deem "non-conforming" should voluntarily "go away".
It brought to mind the saying "Don't go away mad_just go away".
That is basically what he said, and particularly singled out the auto business owners.
I really wish that the Cary business owners who were targeted with amortization would have made some kind of public statement about the Just Compensation Bill that NCLM, NCAPA, and friends managed to turn into a "billboard issue".
And I wonder if it is more than co-incidence, that now that the Just Compensation Bill has been safely altered and passed after removing protections for buildings and structures, that some Council members feel emboldened to proceed to find ways to force you out of Town.
Funny how the Signage battles and other property rights issues seem to coincide!
Cathy

[Don]

I haven't made it through The Cary News yet. Where did you read these comments?

In the Cary News

[Don]

deleted

[Cathy]

It is the front page article on the right side titled "Time to Get a Move On...", right under the illuminated signs article that quoted Mr. Ogle saying the COuncil action was a "slap in the face".

I found it interesting that in the article about the Heart of Cary goup's frustration, that Mr. Ashford complained about feeling that they were being "planned to death". Yet the article then goes on to suggest that the answer to this is to have more planners!

It was Lang and crowd that increased the Planning Dept Staff dramatically in 2001 or 2002, and since then the frustration level has gone up and the level of disregard for the rights and welfare of the downtown business owners has gone up. Does anyone see a cause and effect here maybe?

Recently, I was surprised to learn that my sister-in-law graduated from college with a degree in City Planning, yet she pursued a career in Event Planning for major corporations. When I asked her why she did that, she explained that when she fell in love with the man who became her husband she realized that her relationship with a land surveyor who is very property rights oriented would not survive her being a city planner, as city planners are, by nature of the job, not too friendly to property rights. I thought the response was quite interesting coming from a liberal Democrat.

Cathy

[Cathy]

Im starting to think you need to start looking for a second plot of land in Cary.

Kelly



I'm starting to think we need a new Mayor Pro-Tem

.....and a few less RINO's. Seems like the reasonable response to these latest Council decisions.

Cathy

[johnb]

I suggest laying off most, if not all, employees in "Planning". They can all be easily re-employed in Pyongyang or Havanna.

Seems those folks stir up a LOT of mischief at the expense of people with real jobs and lives.

[Brent]

Im starting to think you need to start looking for a second plot of land in Cary.

Kelly



I'm starting to think we need a new Mayor Pro-Tem

Just now starting?!? You're way late...

[Cathy]

I suggest laying off most, if not all, employees in "Planning". They can all be easily re-employed in Pyongyang or Havanna.

Seems those folks stir up a LOT of mischief at the expense of people with real jobs and lives.

Agree 200%!!!!

The Town DOES need to start looking at ways to decrease Operating Expenses, and trimming the personnel load is what most business' that need to do that start with.
Planners are much more expendable than Police, Fire, and Utility workers.
Parks and Rec might be next behind Planning for places to cut personnel.

Cathy

[Don]

While planners like to plan (duh, that's their job) It is councuil who gives staff direction on which way to plan. If council tells staff to plan for NO growth, that's what they do. If council says plan to bulldoze downtown, that's what they will do. I do not neccesarily blame staff - in fact I have met many at town hall who are opposed to this kind of thing - and others who are not.

Bottom line, it is councils responsibilty here.

[Cathy]

While planners like to plan (duh, that's their job) It is councuil who gives staff direction on which way to plan. If council tells staff to plan for NO growth, that's what they do. If council says plan to bulldoze downtown, that's what they will do. I do not neccesarily blame staff - in fact I have met many at town hall who are opposed to this kind of thing - and others who are not.

Bottom line, it is councils responsibilty here.

Yes, It IS Council's responsibilty. It is their responsibility to be able to sort through the ideas that are thrown at them by planners and decide which plans would be helpful to the citizens of the Town while upholding the Constitutional rights of these same citizens.
They should be educating themselves enough to know which of the Town employees support this goal and which ones are trying to subvert it. Then they will know who to lose and who to keep.
The buck DOES stop with them. They can't just let "the experts" call the shots and then wash their hands of responsibility.
Cathy

[dhyatt]

Don't take this personally but I think you are all missing the point. The point is that neither Council nor staff really know what to do with downtown. When you add that to the undeniable fact that downtown busineess owners themselves don't agree on what should be done and that the general public knows/cares even less, you're left with the situation we currently have. The plans that are (and have been for years) bandied about will simply guarantee no one is really happy.

In order to 'fix' downtown, we need leadership and we need money. Unless we are willing to wait the 20-30 years needed for natural market forces to resurrect downtown (I'm not), some of that money will have to be taxpayer money forcibly taken from people like JohnB ;-)

All the players involved will never totally agree on what downtown should morph into. There will be winners and losers - there always are. However, we need a plan and we need to implement it - even if the 'plan' is to keep planners out of it altogether. The constant kneejerk reaction by all parties involved doesn't seem to be getting us anywhere...

[Cathy]

The point isn't missed.
I disagree with the meddling and don't have the level of confidence that you apparently have that meddling and crystal ball gazing is going to have good results. I DO have the patience to allow the market to work and confidence in existing property owners to know how to capitalize on market trends.

Cathy

[StanN]

Don,

Don't you find it unusual for Jack to be getting out in front on this issue with a comment that he knew would raise a lot of hackles?? Do you think he is speaking for himself - or is he testing the waters for someone else? Who could that be? One final question...are you sure you have the Chamber on your side regarding this issue? :roll:

P.S. I think Kelly's advice is sound.

stan

[Brent]

The point isn't missed.
I disagree with the meddling and don't have the level of confidence that you apparently have that meddling and crystal ball gazing is going to have good results. I DO have the patience to allow the market to work and confidence in existing property owners to know how to capitalize on market trends.

Cathy

I tend to agree. If there's no consensus, and no one knows what should be done, then let's let things run their course until we do have a better idea (i.e., the option of the plan to keep the planners out).

I don't think that downtown needs "fixing". It ain't broke. It's got some problems, but the problems won't be fixed with 6-story buildings or mini-parks.

[Brent]

Don't you find it unusual for Jack to be getting out in front on this issue with a comment that he knew would raise a lot of hackles?? Do you think he is speaking for himself - or is he testing the waters for someone else? Who could that be?

It is curious, isn't it? If we have to develop "political will" to deprive people of their livelihoods so that we can realize the planners' vision, then I hope we never develop that "political will".

[StanN]

Don H,

Obviously TCAP is not "going anywhere". But what is your priority for moving it forward? Instead of what? And do you really think that someone doesn't have a plan to profit on the TOC's future investment in TCAP? They just haven't told us what that plan is...yet. Patience..all will be revealed when they are ready.

stan

[dhyatt]

Don H,

Obviously TCAP is not "going anywhere". But what is your priority for moving it forward? Instead of what? And do you really think that someone doesn't have a plan to profit on the TOC's future investment in TCAP? They just haven't told us what that plan is...yet. Patience..all will be revealed when they are ready.

stan

Stan,
I'm not all that enamored with TCAP but I've seen how long it takes for natural market forces to bring renewal to a city and what we'd have to endure in the process. I'm probably being overly optimistic but I don't think we have to wait for downtown to fall apart before its 'fixed' by some massive urban renewal project. At the same time, I can see early stages of 'urban rot' in downtown Cary already. There has to be some way to encourage market forces to invest early that doesn't require forcing out existing businesses. It could be through infrastructure improvements, less (but not zero) regulation, and incentives to make property and signage improvements. It could also be through an assisted buyout and/or relocation plan for businesses that potential investors consider to be 'in the way.' To the best of my knowledge, none of these approaches have been seriously discussed.

The only thing I know for sure is having a 'master' plan without any money to back it up is worse than having no plan at all.

[johnb]

In order to 'fix' downtown, we need leadership and we need money.

********. You start with the false premise that there is a 'problem'. There isn't. There is private property the owners are using in ways that are within the law and satisfactory to their own economic needs.

The fact that you don't like the look of the place is irrelevant and has no value in and of itself. If you find the look of downtown Cary offensive, buy the land and change it, otherwise, leave those property owners alone.

Unless we are willing to wait the 20-30 years needed for natural market forces to resurrect downtown (I'm not), some of that money will have to be taxpayer money forcibly taken from people like JohnB

So to please your sense of asthetics you want to steal money from me in order to deprive Don Frantz of his property and drive his business out of downtown Cary. Nice.

All the players involved will never totally agree on what downtown should morph into.

So the "solution" is to use the police power of the state to destroy people's businesses and drive them out of the city? Wow. You tolerate disagreement well.

[Cathy]

The point isn't missed.
I disagree with the meddling and don't have the level of confidence that you apparently have that meddling and crystal ball gazing is going to have good results. I DO have the patience to allow the market to work and confidence in existing property owners to know how to capitalize on market trends.

Cathy

I tend to agree. If there's no consensus, and no one knows what should be done, then let's let things run their course until we do have a better idea (i.e., the option of the plan to keep the planners out).

I don't think that downtown needs "fixing". It ain't broke. It's got some problems, but the problems won't be fixed with 6-story buildings or mini-parks.

Amen.

[Cathy]

Stan,
I'm not all that enamored with TCAP but I've seen how long it takes for natural market forces to bring renewal to a city and what we'd have to endure in the process. I'm probably being overly optimistic but I don't think we have to wait for downtown to fall apart before its 'fixed' by some massive urban renewal project. At the same time, I can see early stages of 'urban rot' in downtown Cary already. There has to be some way to encourage market forces to invest early that doesn't require forcing out existing businesses. It could be through infrastructure improvements, less (but not zero) regulation, and incentives to make property and signage improvements. It could also be through an assisted buyout and/or relocation plan for businesses that potential investors consider to be 'in the way.' To the best of my knowledge, none of these approaches have been seriously discussed.

The only thing I know for sure is having a 'master' plan without any money to back it up is worse than having no plan at all.

Now you're talking Don.
but let's not hold Urban Renewal up as an example to follow.
Some of the BEST places in the US developed from private initiative.
And I don't agree with the last statement. Urban planners have historically made some huge mistakes and messes when they "had the money" to put action to their meddling. (like Urban Renewal)
It may be a blessing in disguise that the taxpayer funding of their dreams and schemes has not been there for them.

Cathy

[dhyatt]

[snip]

BS - You start with the false premise that there is a 'problem'. There isn't. There is private property the owners are using in ways that are within the law and satisfactory to their own economic needs.

[snip]

You've hit the crux of the issue. You don't see a problem because you don't really care one way or another what happens downtown and that's fine. However, that doesn't alter the fact that natural market forces will allow downtown to basically rot until property is cheap enough to buy and build something new. It happens all over the country.

The only real issue is whether taxpayer money should be used to speed up the process. In theory, newer property that's home to thriving businesses generates more tax revenue and helps keep everyone's taxes lower - in the long run. Unfortunately, we can't very well invest in 'promoting' businesses downtown when we spend our time and money creating and regulating sign ordinances and putting up public art instead.

[johnb]

You don't see a problem because you don't really care one way or another what happens downtown and that's fine.

Quite the contrary. I do care. I care that private property owners and family run businesses are gonna get shafted. I care that people's rights to their own property is about to get raped by the city council. My care is for the property owners, I don't care if they decorate their place in a way that pleases me or not.

However, that doesn't alter the fact that natural market forces will allow downtown to basically rot until property is cheap enough to buy and build something new. It happens all over the country.

Welcome to capitalism. The most productive use for a given piece of property is the one it will generally be used for, unless government intervenes and distorts the market.

The only real issue is whether taxpayer money should be used to speed up the process. In theory, newer property that's home to thriving businesses generates more tax revenue and helps keep everyone's taxes lower - in the long run.

That's how it works alright. I say we use tax revenue and cops with guns to evict everyone from your neighborhood so the rest of us can enjoy the benefit of a Super Target in Cary. That'll generate a lot more cash for the city than your house. It's a great theory Don, unless you're the one the cops are pointing their guns at while a judge approves an eviction notice against you.

Unfortunately, we can't very well invest in 'promoting' businesses downtown when we spend our time and money creating and regulating sign ordinances and putting up public art instead.

The only unfortunate occurance there is our city council criminals are still free to engage in mischief in all areas.

[Cathy]

The only real issue is whether taxpayer money should be used to speed up the process. In theory, newer property that's home to thriving businesses generates more tax revenue and helps keep everyone's taxes lower - in the long run.

Don,

This is the kind of justification that is being used more and more across the country by politicians using eminent domain seizures of private property only to hand it over to another private entity, because the new use will bring more tax revenue to the area.

This kind of abuse of eminent domain is a frightening trend.

Cathy

[Don]

Ok here we go.


The point is that neither Council nor staff really know what to do with downtown.

What council should do:Improve/install infrastructure such as roads, parking, and stormawater problems - lower/eliminate cumbersome fees and relax restrictive ordinances. And then let the market take care of itself.


In order to 'fix' downtown, we need leadership and we need money. Unless we are willing to wait the 20-30 years needed for natural market forces to resurrect downtown (I'm not), some of that money will have to be taxpayer money

Other than the lacking infrastructure, what about downtown is broke? Don't take this personal, but I don't think Hyatt knows what's best for MY business.


The point isn't missed.
I disagree with the meddling and don't have the level of confidence that you apparently have that meddling and crystal ball gazing is going to have good results. I DO have the patience to allow the market to work and confidence in existing property owners to know how to capitalize on market trends.
Cathy

Thank You Cathy!


Don,

Don't you find it unusual for Jack to be getting out in front on this issue with a comment that he knew would raise a lot of hackles?? Do you think he is speaking for himself - or is he testing the waters for someone else? Who could that be? One final question...are you sure you have the Chamber on your side regarding this issue?

P.S. I think Kelly's advice is sound.

stan

I think Jack needs to think more before he opens his mouth. What really frustrates me is that nobody (except MJ) ever speaks the truth on this issue. They tell, or lead the chamber crowd to believe one thing, while they tell us another. I can see how both sides are frustrated. NO, the chamber and I are NOT in agreement here. We both want our downtown to succeed, but we have different ideas on how to make that happen. The elites in the chamber expect the government and our tax dollars to make it happen. I say but out (except for infrastructure) and let the free market take care of itself.

Kelly should not be afraid to fight for what is right.



I don't think that downtown needs "fixing". It ain't broke. It's got some problems, but the problems won't be fixed with 6-story buildings or mini-parks.

You got that right. Flooding is already the big issue downtown. Lets add parking decks, more roof tops, high density and see what happens. Ya, that's a good idea huh?


In order to 'fix' downtown, we need leadership and we need money.

********. You start with the false premise that there is a 'problem'. There isn't. There is private property the owners are using in ways that are within the law and satisfactory to their own economic needs.

The fact that you don't like the look of the place is irrelevant and has no value in and of itself. If you find the look of downtown Cary offensive, buy the land and change it, otherwise, leave those property owners alone.

Unless we are willing to wait the 20-30 years needed for natural market forces to resurrect downtown (I'm not), some of that money will have to be taxpayer money forcibly taken from people like JohnB

So to please your sense of asthetics you want to steal money from me in order to deprive Don Frantz of his property and drive his business out of downtown Cary. Nice.

All the players involved will never totally agree on what downtown should morph into.

So the "solution" is to use the police power of the state to destroy people's businesses and drive them out of the city? Wow. You tolerate disagreement well.

Thanks John, couldn't of said it better myself! I also ask this. If Cary doesn't want auto repair downtown, where do they want it? In Prestonwood? NO In MacGregor? NO How about Lochmere or Weston? NO Does everyone in Cary feel like driving to Raleigh to get your car fixed?

TCAP is actually a decent plan with some good ideas. How to realize those ideas will NEVER be agreed upon. Many, especially chamber elites, major land owners or old time business owners downtown don't care what we think - They know what's best for us now! Does anyone also think it is just coincidence that the Chairperson of the TCAP Implimentation committee is now the Chair of the Chamber of Commerce? Just a thought.

Of all the comments in the paper, I actually liked that of Senior Planner Jeff Ulma when asked about ANOTHER staff position - an expediter for downtown development. "We would love to have a project that needed expediting" What's that tell you? Maybe those downtown, land owners, chamber elites, etc. need to quit their bitching and whinning and actually DO something?

Bottom Line, you will never change the attitude of the Chamber. Politicians on the other hand can be changed frequently.

[johnb]

Does anyone also think it is just coincidence that the Chairperson of the TCAP Implementation committee is now the Chair of the Chamber of Commerce? Just a thought.

I think the Chamber may not be as friendly to 'some' businesses in Cary as others. The impression I get is that they want a polished and shined city free from the blemishes of the real world. Their attitude is McMayor's attitude I believe.

The problem with this is that businesses are often anti-free market/capitalism if they can get government to beat the crap out of their competition. It allows them to keep prices high and consumers suffer.

[Brent]

Does anyone also think it is just coincidence that the Chairperson of the TCAP Implementation committee is now the Chair of the Chamber of Commerce? Just a thought.

I think the Chamber may not be as friendly to 'some' businesses in Cary as others. The impression I get is that they want a polished and shined city free from the blemishes of the real world. Their attitude is McMayor's attitude I believe.

A former chairman of the Chamber is in tune with the Chamber?!!? Say it ain't so! 8O :wink:

[Don]

The only real issue is whether taxpayer money should be used to speed up the process. In theory, newer property that's home to thriving businesses generates more tax revenue and helps keep everyone's taxes lower - in the long run.

Don,

This is the kind of justification that is being used more and more across the country by politicians using eminent domain seizures of private property only to hand it over to another private entity, because the new use will bring more tax revenue to the area.

This kind of abuse of eminent domain is a frightening trend.

Cathy

You got that right. Need an "arts district"? Condemn a wharehousing block. Need a new strip mall? Condemn an older furniture store. Need a golf course? Condemn a "blighted" neighborhood. Happening all over the country and VERY scarey.

[Brent]

You got that right. Need an "arts district"? Condemn a wharehousing block. Need a new strip mall? Condemn an older furniture store. Need a golf course? Condemn a "blighted" neighborhood. Happening all over the country and VERY scarey.

No, no, no, Don, that's not right at all.

We condemn warehouses to get coffee shops and trendy restaurants.

For arts districts, we condemn auto businesses.

Get your facts straight, will ya? :lol: :wink:

[dhyatt]

[snip]
I think the Chamber may not be as friendly to 'some' businesses in Cary as others. The impression I get is that they want a polished and shined city free from the blemishes of the real world. Their attitude is McMayor's attitude I believe.
[snip]

And I didn't even have to spell it out :-) :-) :-) You are 100% correct Mr JohnB. Thus the rather obvious lack of cooperation - one way or the other - between established businesses and established money. CTC, with staff as willing and able accomplices, have been wringing their hands over how to placate/help established businesses AND encourage established money to build new businesses all at the same time. Add in the tiny detail that the 'established money' crowd isn't really interested in building fancy new stuff right next to some of the 'established (i.e. auto) businesses' and you begin to see why things are in their current all around dysfunctional state.

As I said from the beginning, a large part of the problem is that downtown businesses and investors don't agree amongst themselves as to whether or not there's a problem, and if so, how to 'fix' it. So far, the 'established money' is only getting partial support from the politicians they 'invested' in. Result? Deadlock....

[dhyatt]

The only real issue is whether taxpayer money should be used to speed up the process. In theory, newer property that's home to thriving businesses generates more tax revenue and helps keep everyone's taxes lower - in the long run.

Don,

This is the kind of justification that is being used more and more across the country by politicians using eminent domain seizures of private property only to hand it over to another private entity, because the new use will bring more tax revenue to the area.

This kind of abuse of eminent domain is a frightening trend.

Cathy

I am in no way advocating the use of eminent domain. I want to be absolutely clear on this - taking from one business and giving to a more 'preferred' business is absolutely wrong - period! If it's that important, then find out what it costs to buy someone out (everybody has a price), put it to the public for a vote and let democracy work. I don't have enough words to express the disdain I have for any government that lowballs a business through eminent domain and then passes the land to a 'better' business, all the while padding their campaign accounts in the process. Using taxpayer money to improve infrastructure and provide for more streamlined development doesn't fall into that category IMO.

[Cathy]

I didn't think you approved of it.
But this kind of abuse is reached by degrees. If you allow a little, it soon escalates.

Cathy

[Don]

11-12 at night and everyone is on CP,......cool. :wink:

[johnb]

You are 100% correct Mr JohnB.

Aim low with the expectations and you'll never be disappointed my friend.

[Rono]

must be a full moon......the crowd is howling!

[Cathy]

Don

Thus the rather obvious lack of cooperation - one way or the other - between established businesses and established money. CTC, with staff as willing and able accomplices, have been wringing their hands over how to placate/help established businesses AND encourage established money to build new businesses all at the same time. Add in the tiny detail that the 'established money' crowd isn't really interested in building fancy new stuff right next to some of the 'established (i.e. auto) businesses' and you begin to see why things are in their current all around dysfunctional state.

The natural fruits of government meddling...

Leave the "established money" to try and manipulate the market WITHOUT the taxpayers funding it!

[Cathy]

I think Jack needs to think more before he opens his mouth.

Jack seems to be suffering from an inflated sense of self importance. He's acting like the "cock-of-the-walk" lately.

Who or what could be feeding this attitude??

I wonder......

[Don]

Don

Thus the rather obvious lack of cooperation - one way or the other - between established businesses and established money. CTC, with staff as willing and able accomplices, have been wringing their hands over how to placate/help established businesses AND encourage established money to build new businesses all at the same time. Add in the tiny detail that the 'established money' crowd isn't really interested in building fancy new stuff right next to some of the 'established (i.e. auto) businesses' and you begin to see why things are in their current all around dysfunctional state.

The natural fruits of government meddling...

Leave the "established money" to try and manipulate the market WITHOUT the taxpayers funding it!

And use their own money?????No way are you crazy? :wink:

[Cathy]

And use their own money?????No way are you crazy? :wink:

I feel pretty certain that I have probably been accused of that by more than one person.

[Brent]

Jack seems to be suffering from an inflated sense of self importance. He's acting like the "cock-of-the-walk" lately.

Who or what could be feeding this attitude??

I wonder......

You don't really wonder, right?

[Cathy]

Jack seems to be suffering from an inflated sense of self importance. He's acting like the "cock-of-the-walk" lately.

Who or what could be feeding this attitude??

I wonder......

You don't really wonder, right?

No, I have an idea of what it may be. Sadly...

[Don]

Jack and I are meeting next week to discuss the article so I guess I'll learn more then. I would like to post a quote from him however that may be comforting.

"I remain firm in my conviction that any meaningful change downtown will be driven by the free market and not by Town directives. My voting record supports this conviction."

[Brent]

Jack and I are meeting next week to discuss the article so I guess I'll learn more then. I would like to post a quote from him however that may be comforting.

"I remain firm in my conviction that any meaningful change downtown will be driven by the free market and not by Town directives. My voting record supports this conviction."

Well, OK, but I would find it more "comforting" if he hadn't said, “We don’t have a political will yet. Three or four auto dealers speak out and like a house of cards, things collapse. We didn’t step up.”

A voting record reflects the past. A current quote reflects current thinking. Voting records evolve. We're watching.

[Brent]

If the proposal to "amortize" downtown auto businesses is a wound, then we might be reminded of the adage, "Time heals all wounds". But not much time has passed since the proposal was made.

So I am rephrasing the adage as "Time wounds all heels". :P

[StanN]

Don F,

A while back you were the one arguing that we ought to let the Mayor and Chamber figure out our direction re economic development. I was taking the position that the what was in the chambers interest was not necessarily in the town's best interest.

I am not against the chamber's interest. I would like to see a more prosperous and vital downtown - but not at the expense of other businesses in town - and auto repair shops are not the only ones that would be hurt by TCAP. As I see it TCAP creates no new demand for the merchants in Cary. It just moves the existing demand around. 10,000 new high quality jobs in Cary would great prosperity for everyone. The gains for TCAP as it is presently planned, would be offset by the losses in other areas. TCAP would create very few new high quality jobs. Some- but not many. Wouldn't the money be better spent for ALL by encouraging new high quality jobs in Cary. It may not be as visible and heroic as the ribbon cutting ceremony for a new downtown - but it would help everybody including all the merchants and members of the chamber as well as the thousands of under-employed/unemployed in Cary.

Sure, I would like to see a better looking downtown. And a park would be nice. But at what price. Its not only the cost of the improvements but the lost benefits of the more productive things that could be done with the same dollars. I agree with the Mayor, we can't afford to do everything - we must pick and choose.

It is simply a question of priorities. Now if I was a major owner of retail space in Cary, I would be frustrated and irritated when I looked across the street and saw the eyesore of an auto repair shop on the #1 corner of town. I might think of how it depressed the value of my property. OK, let private interests buy it out and put something better in its place. Why should the taxpayers do the job for the benefit of private investors?

Solving flooding problems, OK thats the job of government. More parking - you can argue that one both ways so why not do it as a pubic/private partnership. Better yet let a private investor pay for the parking deck charge for the parking and let the merchants that choose to do so, pay for the first hours fee.

High density housing as part of a mixed use development near the train station?...if a developer sees a market for it it should go in. Appropriate zoning changes should be allowed. And just like other developments, the town should front the utility and road infrastructure. and collect a fee to offset the cost. A rec fee could help pay for a small community park. That would help the merchants downtown as well.

Create more jobs and do a number of small, non-heroic things downtown and sooner or later the land will be so valuable that you would not be able to afford an auto repair shop downtown. Don will be able to retire on his yacht in southern France or at least buy us all a drink.

stan

[Brent]

It may not be as visible and heroic as the ribbon cutting ceremony for a new downtown - but it would help everybody including all the merchants and members of the chamber as well as the thousands of under-employed/unemployed in Cary.

Hear, hear. But visible and heroic things are what people pay attention to (which means that politicians get votes), unfortunately. Stormwater remediation ain't glamorous. The Galleria is glamorous. Did The Galleria create jobs, or move jobs? I wonder.


I agree with the Mayor, we can't afford to do everything - we must pick and choose.

Stan, you should know that someone masquerading as you is claiming to "agree with the Mayor". :lol: :lol:


High density housing as part of a mixed use development near the train station?...if a developer sees a market for it it should go in. Appropriate zoning changes should be allowed.

Agreed, but I don't know any developers who are that dumb. And no rezoning is required; the entire Town Center is zoned "Town Center", which pretty much means that "anything goes".


Create more jobs and do a number of small, non-heroic things downtown and sooner or later the land will be so valuable that you would not be able to afford an auto repair shop downtown. Don will be able to retire on his yacht in southern France or at least buy us all a drink.

Agreed that the Town should be pursuing small, non-heroic things that create jobs. If Don's property becomes tremendously valuable as a result, then he can sell it and retire to his yacht (and yes, I want him to buy me a drink). Unfortunately, Jack (and the mayor, maybe?) apparently want to take his property, after improving the infrastructure like Don has been yelling at them to do all along, so that they can build the parking deck, or the Starbucks, or the park with a fountain. I'd be ticked at the cretins if I were Don, too.

Don and Stan are both right. You would think that certain Council members would notice that. Unless they've been brainwashed into believing that only The Chamber can be right.

[Cathy]

Stan!

In regard to your last post here:

THERE ISN"T ONE IOTA OF IT THAT I WOULDN'T AGREE WITH 100%!!!

Cathy

[Don]

Don F,

A while back you were the one arguing that we ought to let the Mayor and Chamber figure out our direction re economic development. I was taking the position that the what was in the chambers interest was not necessarily in the town's best interest.

I still believe the Chamber is a great voice of business, and when they and the town work together, great things can happen for everyone in Cary. We disagree on how to revitalize downtown but we both believe it needs help. Look at some of the great businesses the Chamber has helped bring to Cary lately? RH Donneley, Infineon, Staples to name a few. They aren't totally responsible here, but they did help. The Chamber can do some really great things - and they can be your worst enemy at times.


I am not against the chamber's interest. I would like to see a more prosperous and vital downtown - but not at the expense of other businesses in town - and auto repair shops are not the only ones that would be hurt by TCAP. As I see it TCAP creates no new demand for the merchants in Cary. It just moves the existing demand around. 10,000 new high quality jobs in Cary would great prosperity for everyone. The gains for TCAP as it is presently planned, would be offset by the losses in other areas. TCAP would create very few new high quality jobs. Some- but not many. Wouldn't the money be better spent for ALL by encouraging new high quality jobs in Cary. It may not be as visible and heroic as the ribbon cutting ceremony for a new downtown - but it would help everybody including all the merchants and members of the chamber as well as the thousands of under-employed/unemployed in Cary.

Agree with you here.


Sure, I would like to see a better looking downtown. And a park would be nice. But at what price. Its not only the cost of the improvements but the lost benefits of the more productive things that could be done with the same dollars. I agree with the Mayor, we can't afford to do everything - we must pick and choose.

It is simply a question of priorities. Now if I was a major owner of retail space in Cary, I would be frustrated and irritated when I looked across the street and saw the eyesore of an auto repair shop on the #1 corner of town. I might think of how it depressed the value of my property. OK, let private interests buy it out and put something better in its place. Why should the taxpayers do the job for the benefit of private investors?

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!YOU GOT IT!!!!!!!!!Private buys Private. Public does NOT buy private and give to private. If you hate what's across the street, you as an American have every right to try to buy it and build what you want. Maybe even buy a few adjoining lots or go in with other land owners and build what all of you want. The government HAS NO RIGHT to take private property from anyone in order to benefit another private entity.


Solving flooding problems, OK thats the job of government. More parking - you can argue that one both ways so why not do it as a pubic/private partnership. Better yet let a private investor pay for the parking deck charge for the parking and let the merchants that choose to do so, pay for the first hours fee.

Agree, and I believe a public/private venture is in the works already.


High density housing as part of a mixed use development near the train station?...if a developer sees a market for it it should go in. Appropriate zoning changes should be allowed. And just like other developments, the town should front the utility and road infrastructure. and collect a fee to offset the cost. A rec fee could help pay for a small community park. That would help the merchants downtown as well.

what's up with the dang fees? I thought we wanted to really encourage redevelopment here? Wouldn't the increase in property and sales tax eventually offset the cost and then actaully make money for the town? Fee's should be used as a growth management tool, NOT a revenue generator downtown.


Create more jobs and do a number of small, non-heroic things downtown and sooner or later the land will be so valuable that you would not be able to afford an auto repair shop downtown. Don will be able to retire on his yacht in southern France or at least buy us all a drink.

I already own my property and unless I choose to leave myself, I'm gonna continue fixing cars in downtown Cary like it or not. If the evironment encouraged me to invest in my business or property downtown, I surely would. I always wanted a pretty brick shop with columns along the front and all. Maybe even a little neon? Dude, I'm not going to France! But I'll buy a round!

[Cathy]

It really makes you wonder what is up with the politicians when all of this logic is so blatantly ignored in order to advance some unclear agenda, doesn't it???

Don,
I couldn't agree more with the opinions expressed on this thread as of late, and I have one comment on something that you have said here:


Wouldn't the increase in property and sales tax eventually offset the cost and then actaully make money for the town?

If you feel frustrated at the fact that you should even have to point this out to the politicians, just wait until they get "Amendment One" (Tax Increment Financing)!! ..and why are they presenting it with a "new name"??
You'll really have a cow when they start throwing that logic back at you as the reasoning for using the "TIF district" redevelopment tool of gambling on future tax value increases to pay off money they borrow without voter approval!

Citizens will get one chance to give their approval or disapproval to giving politicians a signed blank check-BOOK when they go to vote in November. After that it will be a free for all debt fest on development districts designed by city planners! What a crapshoot that will be!!

If the politicians are going to gamble on the financial return of new development, it should be limited to providing an attractive atmosphere for new business. Not going so far as to proscribe every last detail of the final product! They should refrain from over-regulating to the point that the atmosphere is stifling to creativity and 'real world' human activity. The "control freaks" need to go!!

Cathy