Revitalizing Downtown

[StanN]

Based on article in the Cary News, the #1 economic development strategy of the Cary Chamber of Commerce is the revitalization of downtown Cary. The Chamber is asking for a new staff position to put more emphasis behind the effort and has expressed frustration over the lack of progress since the TCAP plan (Town Center Area Plan) was adopted by the CTC in 2001.

To refresh your memories here is an excerpt from the TOC's web site:

"What are the basic goals of the Town Center Area Plan (TCAP)?
As the long-range master plan for downtown Cary and its neighborhoods, the Town Center Area Plan is being developed to ensure that this very important part of Cary remains vital, attractive, and inviting for years to come. The Plan includes recommendations for future land uses, development and redevelopment, housing, and parks and greenways. The Plan has been developed around a set of "Guiding Principles" that were developed based on broad-based community input garnered at an open house for the downtown area in December 1998, at which about 200 downtown residents and business people shared their long-term vision for the downtown area. These Guiding Principles include:

Encourage a diverse mix of business, office, institutional, recreational, open space and residential uses in a pedestrian-friendly environment within walking distance of the regional transit station, and at sufficient densities to support the station and downtown businesses.
Develop a multi-modal transportation system (i.e., automobile, pedestrian, bicycle, transit) which promotes the safe and efficient movement of people and goods. Avoid having roads wider than 2 or 3 lanes in the downtown core, south of the Norfolk-Southern and CSX railroad tracks.
Provide convenient and adequate parking, with minimal visual impacts.
Preserve downtown's small-town charm as a key design element for future development, especially south of the CSX railroad tracks.
Ensure adequate utilities and services.
Establish the downtown as a unique, attractive, and memorable "magnet" destination for Cary residents, and as the cultural center for Cary.
Provide sufficient parks and open space, and pedestrian and greenway links that connect the Town Center to other areas of Cary.

Why has the Town chosen to focus attention on this section of Cary?
A master plan for downtown Cary is needed at this point in order to address pressing traffic concerns, and to plan now for future development and redevelopment that may be spurred by the planned downtown Cary station of the Triangle Transit Authority's Regional Commuter Rail System, linking Raleigh, Cary, Morrisville, Research Triangle Park, and Durham. Commuter rail service is expected to begin in 2007."
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I have some questions for you:

1. Do you believe revitalizing downtown is a key central need for Cary?
Does it address a serious need that would benefit the majority of citizens? e.g. would it add to general property values?; would it provide needed jobs? are the parks and open space proposed important regarding recreational opportunities? Is it needed to promote the Regional Rail System, e.g. part of a mixed use area including high-density residential to support rail use.

2. How do you rate the importance of this effort compared to other initiatives? a. economic development efforts to create high-quality jobs; b. road and street improvements; c. new parks and recreational facilities; d.doing nothing and minimizing a possible tax increase.

3. Assuming the CTC agrees to move ahead on TCAP, how do you think it should be financed and planned?
a. mostly private capital with the town taking a coordinating role and providing infrastructure, e.g. roads, utilities and parking.
b.Should the TOC should go further into debt (such as TIF financing).
c. What role should the TOC take in regulating the types of businesses in the TCAP area, e.g. big-box stores, auto-repair shops; bars and cafes, other? Alternatives range from a free market approach to banning certain types of buinesses.
d. How would you deal with existing businesses that do not fit the plan, such as auto-repair shops?
a. phase them out over time; b. do not allow them to expand; offer assistance in relocating. d.take a free-market approach.

That's enough to get you started.

stan

[Cathy]

Stan,

They could have consolidated the "Guiding Principles" into a much more honest and concise form by just saying that they were going to promote Smart Growth and New Urbanism, and that is that. Then just put all property owners on notice that if that don't want to redevelop their property so it looks more like Seaside or Celebration Station in Florida, then start packing.

"..the Town Center Area Plan is being developed to ensure that this very important part of Cary remains vital, attractive, and inviting for years to come."
This is far too vague of a statement that gives a stamp of approval to just about anything that the Town Planners decide is best, because they will certainly not relinquish their control over what is allowed and will use it to push THEIR vision, by hook or by crook. They are trained in ways to gather the appearance of consensus for a pre-determined agenda.

It is somewhat important for the Town to foster a viable downtown area, although the vitality of downtown Cary is NOT a critical factor to the success and attractiveness of the Town. There are too many other outside of Cary factors that reduce the importance of a thriving Town Center in Cary. It is a "nice to have", not a "need to have".
There are just too many attractive shopping alternatives nearby. Downtown Cary will have to appeal to a specialized market.
(BTW_why is there no True Value or Ace Hdwr downtown?)

Cary's success as a Town is more dependent on the quality of the housing and neighborhoods that have been built in close proximity to good employment centers. The second factor has been the Town's past focus on the road infrastructure being in place to handle the traffic from all of the nice quiet "sprawling" limited access neighborhoods that people like to retreat to when they aren't working and feel are safe for their children to move around in.

The best thing that could happen for the downtown business area is for the Town to stop strangling the business and property owners with over regulation. The Town's efforts should focus on providing adequate infrastructure to support new business. It really makes you think that there is something very wrong when the Town has an attractive customer base to appeal to, yet new business that would love to offer a product to these consumers find it far too expensive, limiting and onerous to locate in downtown Cary. And the existing business' are left struggling to survive under heavy restrictions to increasing their appeal.

In my opinion, the worst thing that Cary could do is alter the housing market to favor high density housing, (it WILL lower the appeal of the Town) and try to throw good money after bad by building to support the rail transit while reversing the policy of accomodating free flowing auto traffic.

No matter what the planners tell you, individual consumers will continue to prefer limited access single family home neighborhoods as soon as they can afford it, and they will continue to prefer using their own automobile to do what they need to do in their lives. No matter how much these same consumers hope that enough 'other people' will use alternate transportation, the facts point to little support for the rationale of dumping money into this kind of wishful thinking.

Cathy

[StanN]

Cathy,

Summarizing your comments - you suggest the town provide infrastructure for the TCAP area and then get out of the way...you would discourage high-density housng. Overall you believe the effort is only of modest priority.

Questions: What if Wal-Mart wanted to build in the new downtown area...or an adults only entertainment venue? What if a developer thought there was a market for apartments near the rail station and proposed same?

Many of us are clear in the initiatives we do not support - but what initiatives, if any, would you support as high priority? Are there any in the economic development ctegory?

stan

[Don]

Stan,
I would love to jump in on this as well, but am too busy to write all I want to say - will write later

[Cathy]

Cathy,

Summarizing your comments - you suggest the town provide infrastructure for the TCAP area and then get out of the way...you would discourage high-density housng. Overall you believe the effort is only of modest priority.

Questions: What if Wal-Mart wanted to build in the new downtown area...or an adults only entertainment venue? What if a developer thought there was a market for apartments near the rail station and proposed same?

Many of us are clear in the initiatives we do not support - but what initiatives, if any, would you support as high priority? Are there any in the economic development ctegory?

stan

If WalMart wanted to put a store in the downtown area they would have to find enough land from willing sellers to do it. Not likely, though possible.
Zoning that has been in use since the 20's would prohibit anything like that if there was no land zoned for that type of use. Continuing to allow input from the adjoining landowners before approval for something like that is permitted would also tend to keep this type of store out. If enough people in the area that are affected actually want the store, then it would be built, and so what? Adult entertainment venues would find the same hurdles. If the surrounding property owners object to having that type of establishment near by, then they could probably keep it out. They could also probably prove it a nuisance.
The same would apply to higher density housing. If the zoning did not prohibit higher density, and a builder thought that there was a market for it just waiting for him to build, then it would be built. If surrounding land owners don't see the housing as a conflict to current uses, then what would be the problem?
I am all for greater flexibility in what gets built. It seems that instead of more flexiblity, these days planning has focused on being quite specific and nit picky about what is to be allowed.

Cathy

[Brent]

Continuing to allow input from the adjoining landowners before approval for something like that is permitted would also tend to keep this type of store out.

[snip]

If the surrounding property owners object to having that type of establishment near by, then they could probably keep it out.

Cathy, surely you of all people are not naive enough to believe that protesting neighbors could keep out a development if "the powers that be" (led by Planning Staff, of course) wanted it, are you? If 4 council members wanted the development, it would happen. I cannot recall a case where a council member's mind was changed by people screaming that they wanted/didn't want something. The way the game is played is that the protesting neighbors get a few "concessions", but the plan is the plan, and the plan will be executed.

I do believe that a Wal-Mart and a (or another) strip club could be kept out of downtown...but not because of protesting neighbors (exception: when those landowners are big-money, influential leading citizens).

But back to Stan's original topic:

Downtown revitalization BY THE TOWN isn't near the top of my priority list. The town can "encourage" things that match a vision or plan for the area and the town can remove obstacles to development and redevelopment, and the town can improve its own infrastructure there (maybe starting with stormwater remediation and making existing parks usable), but the town shouldn't be "building downtown", and it shouldn't be kicking out people who already are downtown.

If the area is attractive to private development, then it will happen. If someone is silly enough to think that the train station will generate enough traffic to support certain shops or housing, let 'em build it.

Frankly, I think the downtown isn't all that bad as it is. Cary could be more friendly to the existing business owners there, but a high-density, pedestrian-friendly, mixed-use Disneyesque downtown isn't going to be any more of a "magnet" for me than what's there now.

[Cathy]

Cathy, surely you of all people are not naive enough to believe that protesting neighbors could keep out a development if "the powers that be" (led by Planning Staff, of course) wanted it, are you? If 4 council members wanted the development, it would happen. I cannot recall a case where a council member's mind was changed by people screaming that they wanted/didn't want something. The way the game is played is that the protesting neighbors get a few "concessions", but the plan is the plan, and the plan will be executed.

You are right Brent. I'm sure that seems strange coming from me.
That IS the way things have been when the affected property owners have made their case, but perhaps this is something that could be cured by having more informed participation by voters when these Council members are elected. When there are too many people on Council who have bought into the same agenda that the planners are pushing, it's time to change the leadership.
Most of the discontent has been over some of the requirements of the LDO, like overlay zoning that is a sneaky way to rezone without public input, and the overlay zoning usually brings higher density development next to single family home neighborhoods. Then they are forced to 'connect' the neighborhood to the higher density 'mixed use' which everyone knows will bring more traffic through the formerly quiet neighborhood. People instinctively oppose having this type of development built next to their quiet neighborhoods, but when Smart Growth is the mandate, folks are told to suck it up and stop whining.

On the other hand, there does need to be some balance to some cases where the complaints cross the line and unfairly infringe on the rights of the person who is trying to build on their land, (usually by "no growthers"). Maybe if the Sales Tax re-imbursement was structured differently, so it is not based on the number of dwelling units in the Town instead of population, money grubbing politicians would not be so quick to promote high density when it isn't in the best interests of the community.

Cathy

[Brent]

Cathy, surely you of all people are not naive enough to believe that protesting neighbors could keep out a development if "the powers that be" (led by Planning Staff, of course) wanted it, are you? If 4 council members wanted the development, it would happen. I cannot recall a case where a council member's mind was changed by people screaming that they wanted/didn't want something. The way the game is played is that the protesting neighbors get a few "concessions", but the plan is the plan, and the plan will be executed.

You are right Brent. I'm sure that seems strange coming from me.
That IS the way things have been when the affected property owners have made their case, but perhaps this is something that could be cured by having more informed participation by voters when these Council members are elected. When there are too many people on Council who have bought into the same agenda that the planners are pushing, it's time to change the leadership.

I share your dream. If people were paying attention/cared, many of them would be up in arms. The politicians bank on the fact that the vast majority don't pay attention, and the majority don't even vote.

[Don]

Questions: What if Wal-Mart wanted to build in the new downtown area...or an adults only entertainment venue? What if a developer thought there was a market for apartments near the rail station and proposed same?

What "new downtown area"? Where could you put a walmart anyways? Who would park in a deck to go to Walmart? Not feasible. If a developer wants to build apartments by the train, that's fine. He can buy the property and do as he wishes with it.


Many of us are clear in the initiatives we do not support - but what initiatives, if any, would you support as high priority? Are there any in the economic development ctegory?

Infrastructure and stormwater. HIGH PRIORITY. Provide a solid road network and ample parking downtown - address flooding and drainage concerns and you might see businesses or developers come downtown to build. Until then it's a waste of time and money

[Brent]

(BTW_why is there no True Value or Ace Hdwr downtown?)

Because 3 minutes from downtown there will be a Lowe's big box.

BTW, that's the same reason that there won't be an Ace Hardware on Kildaire Farm or Old Apex in 5 years. We ignore established businesses and neighborhoods and court the new ones. There's not much glamor in fixing flooding or existing parks; it's much more glamorous to build pretty new places and extend the greenway system another 7 miles. :roll:

[Brent]

Provide a solid road network and ample parking downtown

Agreed. And yet, I believe that "the plan" calls for actually REMOVING a lane of W. Chatham St. Fascinating.

[Don]

1. Do you believe revitalizing downtown is a key central need for Cary?
Does it address a serious need that would benefit the majority of citizens? e.g. would it add to general property values?; would it provide needed jobs? are the parks and open space proposed important regarding recreational opportunities? Is it needed to promote the Regional Rail System, e.g. part of a mixed use area including high-density residential to support rail use.

NO. I believe addrssing the lacking infrastructure is. Building a false utopia so "hopefully" people ride a train is foolish

2. How do you rate the importance of this effort compared to other initiatives? a. economic development efforts to create high-quality jobs; b. road and street improvements; c. new parks and recreational facilities; d.doing nothing and minimizing a possible tax increase.

Much of what the town can do is NOTHING. Get rid of the rediculous fees, regulations, and micro-management and see what happens. Government meddling in downtown hasn't seemed to do much yet so why should I think more government would?

3. Assuming the CTC agrees to move ahead on TCAP, how do you think it should be financed and planned?
a. mostly private capital with the town taking a coordinating role and providing infrastructure, e.g. roads, utilities and parking.

YES

b.Should the TOC should go further into debt (such as TIF financing).

NO

c. What role should the TOC take in regulating the types of businesses in the TCAP area, e.g. big-box stores, auto-repair shops; bars and cafes, other? Alternatives range from a free market approach to banning certain types of buinesses.

Free Market with limited restrictions for uses such as big box type stores. No room and would overly stree stormwater and traffic concerns. You know you are getting ready to get yelled at right?

d. How would you deal with existing businesses that do not fit the plan, such as auto-repair shops?

WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH AUTO REPAIR DOWNTOWN????????Doesn't fit whose plan? Works fine in my plan. Maybe I hate pink houses and pharmacies? Even if I did, they have every right to be here like I do. People need to quit worrying about, or worse, trying to control everyone else and worry about themselves.

[Anonymous]

Tell it like it is Don. The blue collar person is what built this country. I am glad you are carrying the torch.

[Cathy]

It's going to take a LOT of yelling Don.
The 'control freaks" tend to be deaf.

Cathy

[Anonymous]

David Miner was deaf also, but he heard load and clear that the people own Government. If elected officials think they can control what they do to us all the time, they are wrong. That goes for CTC as well.

[Brent]

It's going to take a LOT of yelling Don.
The 'control freaks" tend to be deaf.

Cathy

Don's already done a lot of yelling. He got a temporary stay of execution. But now they're back (as JohnB observed, even sooner than expected). Geesh.

[Cathy]

David Miner was deaf also, but he heard load and clear that the people own Government. If elected officials think they can control what they do to us all the time, they are wrong. That goes for CTC as well.

It is definitely time, my friend, way past time, for the currently elected to get more of this message.

Cathy

[Brent]

David Miner was deaf also, but he heard load and clear that the people own Government. If elected officials think they can control what they do to us all the time, they are wrong. That goes for CTC as well.

It is definitely time, my friend, way past time, for the currently elected to get more of this message.

Cathy

...and that would include, for example, mayors who won't allow lighted signs, correct?

[Cathy]

Mayors who take those kinds of positions would definitely need to be included.

[Brent]

Mayors who take those kinds of positions would definitely need to be included.

And mayors pro tem, too, of course, and other like-minded Council members.

[Brent]

David Miner was deaf also, but he heard load and clear that the people own Government. If elected officials think they can control what they do to us all the time, they are wrong. That goes for CTC as well.

Hopefully, CTC members who believe in this statement can influence other CTC members (say, a mayor or mayor pro-tem) who want to control things like the placement of white lights, lighted business signs or "amortized" businesses. I sure hope so.

[hollyL]

"The council wants to promote small business, Smith said, but the illuminated signs are more characteristic of a "honky-tonk environment" than Cary." -Cary News

I like those signs...I think I've just been insulted! ARG!

Since when has personal preference for one thing or another been a criteria for ordinances anyway?

"Your honor, I believe these laws are unconstitutional"
Defense response, "But you honor...they are tacky! honky-tonk like!"

If I was mayor I'd outlaw azaleas - they are ugly. Maybe I could bring that up at the next meeting. "Azaleas are tacky and should be banned!"

h

[Brent]

"Since when has personal preference for one thing or another been a criteria for ordinances anyway?

Since Jack and Jennifer got elected (actually, they are just continuing a stupid tradition).


""Your honor, I believe these laws are unconstitutional"
Defense response, "But you honor...they are tacky! honky-tonk like!"

If I was mayor I'd outlaw azaleas - they are ugly. Maybe I could bring that up at the next meeting. "Azaleas are tacky and should be banned!"

h

Yep, it won't change until someone takes 'em to court.

Perhaps the solution is to ban tacky, honky-tonk-like Council members. Any nominations from the floor?

[Cathy]

"Since when has personal preference for one thing or another been a criteria for ordinances anyway?

Since Jack and Jennifer got elected (actually, they are just continuing a stupid tradition).

You are leaving some others out.


""Your honor, I believe these laws are unconstitutional"
Defense response, "But you honor...they are tacky! honky-tonk like!"

If I was mayor I'd outlaw azaleas - they are ugly. Maybe I could bring that up at the next meeting. "Azaleas are tacky and should be banned!"

h

Yep, it won't change until someone takes 'em to court.

Perhaps the solution is to ban tacky, honky-tonk-like Council members. Any nominations from the floor?

So tempting to respond....

[Brent]

So tempting to respond

Go for it.

[Cathy]

It would be easier to list the ones who are not..

But perhaps the others deserve a different category other than Honkey Tonk. I'll have to think on this...

[Brent]

It would be easier to list the ones who are not..

But perhaps the others deserve a different category other than Honkey Tonk. I'll have to think on this...

Good point.

Surely it would not be those who are members of my former party who think they should control where twinkly lights and lighted signs are placed. You know, the ones who, next fall, will be saying "We're pro-business! Less government is better!". Surely not them. Right? Right?

[Brent]

"Since when has personal preference for one thing or another been a criteria for ordinances anyway?

Since Jack and Jennifer got elected (actually, they are just continuing a stupid tradition).

You are leaving some others out.
Indeed. Ernie & Marla know what's best for business, too. As I've previously pointed out, it takes 4 council members to put the screws to the citizens.

[hollyL]

hon·ky-tonk: n. A cheap, noisy bar or dance hall. (needed to look up the meaning due to my yankeeness)

Vegas has alot of lights and lighted signs...never really thought of vegas being "honky-tonk".

Using honky-tonk is a really weird thing to say really now that I think about it...

[Brent]

hon·ky-tonk: n. A cheap, noisy bar or dance hall. (needed to look up the meaning due to my yankeeness)

Vegas has alot of lights and lighted signs...never really thought of vegas being "honky-tonk".

Using honky-tonk is a really weird thing to say really now that I think about it...

Funny. You had to look it up, but it tripped right off of Jack's tongue. Hmmm...

[Anonymous]

[
Surely it would not be those who are members of my former party who think they should control where twinkly lights and lighted signs are placed. You know, the ones who, next fall, will be saying "We're pro-business! Less government is better!". Surely not them. Right? Right?

Yeah... I think those are the ones...
But it's very difficult to seperate them by party since fascism these days seems to be bi-partisan. Fashionable fascism, crossing party lines!

(and BTW_I have no idea what your party affiliations were or are)

[Don]

If I was mayor I'd outlaw azaleas - they are ugly. Maybe I could bring that up at the next meeting. "Azaleas are tacky and should be banned!"

h

I love azaleas. I have over 30 at my house and 20 at the shop. The most beautiful shrub in spring by far. I would fight ya here holly!

[Don]

It's going to take a LOT of yelling Don.
The 'control freaks" tend to be deaf.

Cathy

It has been rather frustrating to have to yell when it is just so common sense. They want us to play by their rules and when we do look what happens? The whole lighted sign thing wasn't me or somebody else just complaining and asking for a change. It was the Heart of Cary Association (downtown businees owners) asking. We worked with staff - provided data to support the ammendment - I/we spoke at council meetings and TCRC meetings - we gained TCRC's, P+Z's, AND Staff's reccomendation for approval - and still lose because a few fuddie-duddies don't like lighted signs. They don't even live or work here. They come here for meetings - thats it.

Ya hate to make such a big deal over stupid lighted signs, but it's the principal of it.

I would also like to ask, "Who the hell want's to invest in our business, building, or property when we don't even know if we will be ALLOWED to be here in seven years?"

We spent over a hundred grand in facility improvements from 98-02. This includes foundation repair, new brick/stucco walls and planters, AZALEAS :-), Paved parking lot, paint, signage, etc... and would now like to change the facade or add on more office space and another couple bays out back maybe.

Would this be a "risk" any of you would want to take?

[Cathy]

It has been rather frustrating to have to yell when it is just so common sense. They want us to play by their rules and when we do look what happens?

....and all of Medfield says, "AMEN"!!!!!

Why did we go to all that trouble?????


....it's the principal of it.

!!!!!!! (and again, "AMEN"!!)


We worked with.....provided data..... I/we spoke at council meetings .....

We hear you brother!!!
Makes a person feel pretty angry to be SH*T ON when one tries to play by the rules!!

Cathy

[Cathy]

WRAL.com
Some Say Cary's Ban On Neon Lights Bad For Business

POSTED: 3:16 PM EDT July 24, 2004
UPDATED: 3:59 PM EDT July 24, 2004



CARY, N.C. -- According to store owners in downtown Cary, the town council's recent decision to prohibit illuminated signs casts a dark cloud over their business.

What Do You Think? http://forums.ibsys.com/viewmessages.cfm?sitekey=ral&Forum=334&Topic=10683

Some business owners said there is a lot of traffic downtown, and neon signs could attract attention.

Town leaders who voted to ban illuminated signs said neon light is tacky.

Councilman Jack Smith called the signs "honky-tonk."

Far beyond matters of taste, downtown business owners said the signs would at least give them more attention at a time when they are competing against huge malls and Super Wal-Mart.

Four downtown Cary shops have gone out of business in the past six months.

It is not just illuminated signs that are banned. Cary prohibits shops to have sandwich boards, or even balloons. Violaters who are caught must pay a $100 fine.

The town has made compromises, like allowing shops to put up twinkle lights in trees. But some said that will be a flash in the pan come winter, when the nights are longer.

WRAL tried to interview town leaders who voted for the neon ban, but they were unavailable.

Copyright 2004 by WRAL.com. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

[hollyL]

OK...dumb question. What the H is a twinkle light?

[dhyatt]

OK...dumb question. What the H is a twinkle light?

http://carypolitics.org/images/twinkle.gif

[Rono]

Careful DonH...isn't your site located in Cary? If someone is using a computer by a window, won't those twinkles show thru? How will this affect the legal sign law?

Perhaps Holly you could put some twinkle light on your freedom of speech yard signs.....After all, Don is putting them on his site!

Lets see who gets the sticker first!

[Don]

Really Don,
You know council ONLY approved WHITE twinkle lights, colors are not allowed. And Don't even think about putting up icicle lights either! No can do.

[hollyL]

OK another dumb question...aren't those Christmas lights? I've seen Christmas tree lights before and they looked just like that...

[dhyatt]

OK another dumb question...aren't those Christmas lights? I've seen Christmas tree lights before and they looked just like that...

Yep - except in Cary you can only use white ones and they are restricted to use only in landscaping, except for the holiday season where I'm presuming (always dangerous here) they'll be allowed on buildings also.

[Anonymous]

Wrong again - I had Christmas lights on a small wreath in my store's front window a year ago last Christmas and I got a letter from the sign police telling me I had to take it down. Of course it didn't bother me at the time as it was after Christmas :-D

[dhyatt]

Wrong again - I had Christmas lights on a small wreath in my store's front window a year ago last Christmas and I got a letter from the sign police telling me I had to take it down. Of course it didn't bother me at the time as it was after Christmas :-D

d*mn - I HATE being wrong... :?

[johnb]

Nels and the Color Nazis must have had a Significant Cardiac Event at seeing a business owner exhibiting a lighted wreath visible from the street in Cary.

Am I alone in thinking the city council is perverse and petty for actually considering (not to mention passing) laws on this topic?

[kellyc]

Town of Cary White Light Patrol!!!

http://www.allkelly.com/homepic.jpg

[Cathy]

Don AND Kelly_ GREAT posts!!

WRAL online forum question:


The Cary Town Council has voted to prohibit neon lights and signs, calling them tacky and "honky tonk." Downtown business owners, however, said neon signs could help attract customers. What side of this debate are you on? Tell us your thoughts.

Three pages of responses, NOT ONE supports the Council decision!

http://forums.ibsys.com/viewmessages.cfmsitekey=ral&Forum=334&Topic=10683

[Anonymous]

My girlfriend Christi owns a hair salon downtown. I have an appt tomorrow and will be sure to bring this sign issue up, and ask for her opinion. I know I can barely see her "open" sign from the road. I'm sure she would love to have a little, unassuming neon "open" sign in her store window to attract customers.
She welcomes walk ins!!! :wink: :-D

Karen

[Karen]

ooops, forgot to login... that was me above...

Karen

[Don]

Am I alone in thinking the city council is perverse and petty for actually considering (not to mention passing) laws on this topic?

Nope

[Don]

Wrong again - I had Christmas lights on a small wreath in my store's front window a year ago last Christmas and I got a letter from the sign police telling me I had to take it down. Of course it didn't bother me at the time as it was after Christmas :-D

What was the date? All Christmas lights are allowed from Nov. 15 to Jan. 15.

[Anonymous]

I don't remember the exact date I remove the lighted weath, but I believe it was probably around New Years Day. I remember I got the letter from the City after I had taken down the weath. Check out the cosmedic store between Bed Bath and Beyond and Radio Shack in Crossroads (I can't remember the name). They installed some nice lights around their windows, but the City won't let them turn them on. Can't imagine what those lights must of cost to install! I was told that lights are never allowed in the front store window.

[Don]

I don't remember the exact date I remove the lighted weath, but I believe it was probably around New Years Day. I remember I got the letter from the City after I had taken down the weath. Check out the cosmedic store between Bed Bath and Beyond and Radio Shack in Crossroads (I can't remember the name). They installed some nice lights around their windows, but the City won't let them turn them on. Can't imagine what those lights must of cost to install! I was told that lights are never allowed in the front store window.

Check out all the signage you see in the windows of convenience stores, fast food restaurants and laundromats. And a little 2 sq. foot lighted sign in a window downtown isn't allowed......whatever.

[johnb]

Yeah... I think those are the ones...
But it's very difficult to seperate them by party since fascism these days seems to be bi-partisan. Fashionable fascism, crossing party lines!

(and BTW_I have no idea what your party affiliations were or are)

The objective definition of "bi-partisan" is simply that place where both parties agree to savage the American people.

Fashionable Fascism....Yep, Nels and the Color Nazis by any other name....

[Cathy]

FANTASTIC article Don!!!!! :-D

What else can I say?

And it was icing on the cake to see a LTE from Brent on the same topic on the same page.

I had to go to two different places to find a copy of the Cary News. The usual place I buy it was sold out!

Cathy

[hollyL]

I didn't even put it together that was "the" Don! Agreed - excellent article!

WTG!
-holly

[Anonymous]

Fashionable Fascism....Yep, Nels and the Color Nazis by any other name....

from reading last weak's cary news, it appears that left leaning Nels actually voted in favor of allowing illuminated signs and our pro business mayor was the swing vote who voted against illuminated signs and downtown biz owners. who would have guessed??

[johnb]

So the Chamber of Commerce doesn't mind goosestepping all over small business owners that don't fit the snotty image they want Cary to project......what's the shock?

[kellyc]

whoops forgot to login. Ya know John...you have been calling Nels a color Nazi..when in fact he has supported not one, but both of the Heart of Cary initiatives. This includes the white lights and the neon signs. Your beef now adays should be with your republican friends...Not the lefty Nels.

Kelly

[hollyL]

Robinson said in the article today, "We don't restrict people from putting up signs as long as it's only one per candidate". Why don't the businesses put up a "OPEN Vote for Kerry (or Bush)" sign that has lights on it! Since they don't restrict tem except for 1 per candidate the lights should be fine :-D

so sayeth the sign gods!

[kellyc]

Robinson said in the article today, "We don't restrict people from putting up signs as long as it's only one per candidate". Why don't the businesses put up a "OPEN Vote for Kerry (or Bush)" sign that has lights on it! Since they don't restrict tem except for 1 per candidate the lights should be fine :-D

so sayeth the sign gods!

Ya know thats not such a bad idea. Wonder how the town would react to that....

Kelly

[johnb]

The objectionable thing is is that it's none of the Soccer Mommy Robinson's business how many yard signs I put up near election day.

She is amazingly petty and totalitiarian for thinking she has some right to order property owners to obey her assault on free speech. I'm gonna have to get a number of "Dick Nixon for Congress" signs made up. Who made yours Holly?

[Cathy]

She's a 'piece of work', that girl, isn't she?

[hollyL]

I'm gonna have to get a number of "Dick Nixon for Congress" signs made up. Who made yours Holly?

The structure of the sign (big metal pole and wood backing) was made by my pa. I had the graphics put on by someone down by my dad's house in Rocky Mount. They were way over priced it seems. I think Rono may be able to recommend a place though.

[johnb]

Good suggestion,

Rono, who made up y'alls anti-annexation signs? Weren't they the ones shaped like a stop sign?

I'm thinking these'll work:

Dick Nixon for Congress
He won't pay the $25.

Dick Nixon for Congress
He can't hurt you, he's dead.

Dick Nixon for Congress
He looks better in pumps than Marla.

Dick Nixon for Congress
He doesn't mind twinkle lights.

Dick Nixon for Congress
He likes Frantz Automotive!

[Don]

Dick Nixon for Congress
He likes Frantz Automotive!

I'll pay for this one if ya need help! :wink:

[Rono]

John, your signs in only two colors (white background, red letters take for instance could probably be printed for $7 to $10 a sign (50 qty)

I got quotes for Holly's sign. Not quit as grafic...no bleed to the edge etc. but multi color and the cost is about $12 per sign for a two faced plastic corrigated type. (stand is a buck extra) 50 in quantity

100 = $7.50 each

250 = $4.00 each

The reason I took interest in this is that we believe that our StopCary StopNCAnnexation signs are free speech as well. I think Holly's effort helps both of our causes and I have offered to contribute some to have hers printed up

Any other contributers?

[Brent]

Nels and the Color Nazis must have had a Significant Cardiac Event at seeing a business owner exhibiting a lighted wreath visible from the street in Cary.

Nels? Don't you mean Ernie and the color Nazis? I didn't support Nels in last year's election, but when he's right, he's right. It was Ernie, Jack, Jennifer & Marla who couldn't stand the lighted signs and the twinkle lights on windows.

[Brent]

Am I alone in thinking the city council is perverse and petty for actually considering (not to mention passing) laws on this topic?

Nope

Definitely not, John.

[Brent]

Robinson said in the article today, "We don't restrict people from putting up signs as long as it's only one per candidate".

Ya gotta love that..."We don't restrict people from doing something except for the restrictions we place on them". Yeah, that's kind of like saying "We don't restrict people from driving at any speed they want as long as it doesn't exceed the speed limit".

And a more accurate statement would be something along the lines of "We don't restrict people from putting up signs as long as it's only one per candidate, and it's not too large, and it's not lighted, and it's not too close to the right-of-way, and..." :roll:

[Brent]

The objectionable thing is is that it's none of the Soccer Mommy Robinson's business how many yard signs I put up near election day.


She's a 'piece of work', that girl, isn't she?

Oh, dear, dissension in the ranks? Does this mean that the conservative Republicans will have to earn support from thinking citizens by acting and voting more responsibly, rather than just proclaiming that they are conservative Republicans and therefore they deserve your support? I sure hope so. That would be a nice wrinkle in government.

[hollyL]

John, your signs in only two colors (white background, red letters take for instance could probably be printed for $7 to $10 a sign (50 qty)

I got quotes for Holly's sign. Not quit as grafic...no bleed to the edge etc. but multi color and the cost is about $12 per sign for a two faced plastic corrigated type. (stand is a buck extra) 50 in quantity

Any other contributers?

I will, of course, contribute. As far as I can tell from comments from the town the *only* thing they are going to enforce is one per candidate per parcel (although I really don't believe if I put up a 10x10 neon lighted sign in my yard they wouldn't say anything) so it seems everyone must get 2 of the exact same sign to violate the ordinance.

[Cathy]

The objectionable thing is is that it's none of the Soccer Mommy Robinson's business how many yard signs I put up near election day.


She's a 'piece of work', that girl, isn't she?

Oh, dear, dissension in the ranks? Does this mean that the conservative Republicans will have to earn support from thinking citizens by acting and voting more responsibly, rather than just proclaiming that they are conservative Republicans and therefore they deserve your support? I sure hope so. That would be a nice wrinkle in government.

This means what it has always meant for me, Brent.
I don't care what "label" a politician wants to promote themselves under.
I do care about where they stand on keeping government intrusion into individual liberty and free choice at the ABSOLUTE minimum!

I'll vote across all party lines and always have. The candidate who is most successful at minimizing the role of government in our daily lives wins my vote.
I'll spend the next four months analyzing which candidate is the "lesser of two evils" in regard to protecting the Constitutional rights of Americans and the Sovereignty of America.
After listening to Kerry list all of the "social programs" he wants to pursue, he's not doing well in my opinion at this point. And the fact that the "progressives" are backing Kerry is another strike against him. I have a very strong dislike of "socialist" policies more than I have any strong allegiance to "conservative" policies.
I wish Ron Paul were running for President. It would be so easy then.

Cathy

[johnb]

I don't know Brent, is there dissension in the GOP ranks over the Soccer Mommys totalitarian tendancies? I'm a Libertarian and *I* don't like it. But that should be expected I assume.

[Brent]

The objectionable thing is is that it's none of the Soccer Mommy Robinson's business how many yard signs I put up near election day.


She's a 'piece of work', that girl, isn't she?

Oh, dear, dissension in the ranks? Does this mean that the conservative Republicans will have to earn support from thinking citizens by acting and voting more responsibly, rather than just proclaiming that they are conservative Republicans and therefore they deserve your support? I sure hope so. That would be a nice wrinkle in government.

This means what it has always meant for me, Brent.
I don't care what "label" a politician wants to promote themselves under.
I do care about where they stand on keeping government intrusion into individual liberty and free choice at the ABSOLUTE minimum!

I'll vote across all party lines and always have. The candidate who is most successful at minimizing the role of government in our daily lives wins my vote.
I'll spend the next four months analyzing which candidate is the "lesser of two evils" in regard to protecting the Constitutional rights of Americans and the Sovereignty of America.
After listening to Kerry list all of the "social programs" he wants to pursue, he's not doing well in my opinion at this point. And the fact that the "progressives" are backing Kerry is another strike against him. I have a very strong dislike of "socialist" policies more than I have any strong allegiance to "conservative" policies.
I wish Ron Paul were running for President. It would be so easy then.

Cathy

Yes, Cathy, but you are a thinking person. At the local level, I was referring to people who might say "vote for me because I am a conservative Republican" while at the same time voting for more government intrusion into our lives. You wait and see what message they promote in a year...

Unfortunately, there are too few thinking people.

[Brent]

I don't know Brent, is there dissension in the GOP ranks over the Soccer Mommys totalitarian tendancies? I'm a Libertarian and *I* don't like it. But that should be expected I assume.

I don't know, I don't do "party" stuff. I do find it odd that many of the "conservative Republicans" are voting for more intrusion into your and my private business, especially when I expect them to run on a "vote for me, I'm a conservative Republican, so there" platform...

[Cathy]

I don't know Brent, is there dissension in the GOP ranks over the Soccer Mommys totalitarian tendancies? I'm a Libertarian and *I* don't like it. But that should be expected I assume.

I don't know, I don't do "party" stuff. I do find it odd that many of the "conservative Republicans" are voting for more intrusion into your and my private business, especially when I expect them to run on a "vote for me, I'm a conservative Republican, so there" platform...

One of the biggest problems facing the Republicans this year is the fact that there are quite a few "conservatives" that are not happy about these things that you have listed, either.

Cathy

[johnb]

The reason I am voting for Bush, in spite of his horrid domestic agenda (it is so close to the Donkeycrats agenda as to be virtually indistinguishable) is that he has the right answer on national defense. The Donkeys are dying, not a Freudian slip there, to surrender to the Islamofascists. I think they're masochists really, they enjoy the pain and humiliation the IslamoFascists would inflict upon America and the West. In that regard they really are French like.

[hollyL]

Anyone see the new addition to downtown? On Chatam (by the carpet place) there is a Java Jive drive through. I was surprised they allowed a drive through in downtown but hey I like coffee and it's on my way to work so I'm all for it.

btw - If they want to preserve the astetics of Cary why don't they leave the last fricken remaining tree on Davis Dr. alone. This is clearly a republican plot to destroy all trees which can be hugged by us liberals!

[johnb]

Holly,

You anti-art twit.....they're slaughtering all those trees so the city council has more room for metallic imitation trees that cost $50,000 per unit. You don't mind paying more property taxes in order to help McMayor and his posse of art lovin' golf fanatics plant really inconsequential "art" all over the city do you?

[Don]

Anyone see the new addition to downtown? On Chatam (by the carpet place) there is a Java Jive drive through. I was surprised they allowed a drive through in downtown but hey I like coffee and it's on my way to work so I'm all for it.

see how less restrictive ordinances can result in business?

[Wuptdo]

This afternoon (after 1:30 pm) I went to "Downtown Cary" to do some business. I had not used these various vendors before so I was not prepared for what I would find. Since it was Saturday afternoon, traffic was light and parking was ample. However, much to my dismay, every one of the vendors I attempted to do business with was CLOSED!

Funny, all the business's were open at Crossroads and at the Mall. What makes these "downtown" vendors so special that they can't be open on weekends. How many millions of tax dollars does the town what to spend on these downtown ya-hoo's? Are these vendors either stupid or just plain lazy? Don't they realize that this is a "bedroom" community and that they need to be open in the evening and on weekends to be competitive? Or maybe they are so rich from the price gouging of their customer base that they don't have to work on weekends. Oh that's right, I keep forgetting what the primarily purpose of the Cary Chamber of Commerce is: 1) getting away with price gouging, 2) how to maintain bad customer service and get away with it, 3) how not to pay decent wages/benefits to employees and, 4) how to get the TC to pay for all their pet projects. :twisted:

I see an LTE in the future asking residents to boycott business "downtown." Maybe that we wake up the lazy "insert word here."

Wuptdo :evil:


There are no traffic jams along the extra mile.
ROGER STAUBACH

[Karen]

Wup,

I really take exception to your generalization of downtown business owners as being stupid and lazy. Maybe one reason many are not open on the weekends is due to all the restrictions the town puts on them which in turn makes it not in their best financial interests to be open. I only assume that these are small business owners that may not have the luxury of hiring a large number of employees as, say, a big corporation like Target can. ie your Crossroads example. Hmmmm, maybe Crossroads and the Mall have taken away so much of their business that again, it's not financially in their best interest to remain open. I don't know about you but I value my time with my family. Have you ever thought that maybe some of these folks value time with their families as well and would like to have some time off???

Do I have any factual basis for my assumptions above? No, just taking some guesses. Just like you're taking guesses as well by assuming that the only reason they are not open is because of stupidity and laziness, or financial security. You have no basis for your assumption either...

Karen

[Karen]

Just to add to my post above. There's an old saying... Hmmm...It's something about walking a mile in someone elses shoes...

Karen

[Wuptdo]

Karen,

OK Karen, how come they are not open for business on Saturdays? Once we (the taxpayers) have spent millions of dollars making "downtown" more attractive on their behalf, what are "they" going to do for us. Where is the town's return on their investment "downtown", i.e. sales tax, if they continued to be closed in the evenings and on weekends. All I seen in the paper for the last 3 years (and on this site) is how important it is to "revitilize" downtown. No Karen, I will keep to my assumption of "stupid, lazy or stinking rich."

Karen wrote:


Have you ever thought that maybe some of these folks value time with their families as well and would like to have some time off???


Karen, when you are in business for yourself you make choices. My Dad has been running a "Business Brokage" over 15 years in the D.C. area. I know full well what goes on and how to run in a small business. There is only one word that fits a "successfull" small business: Sacrifice.
I think your husband would agree with me on that point. Being a small business owner means giving up many things, including a family life. If you can't make the "family life" sacrifice, then get a "real" job (9 to 5 type). Also, I have found over the years, that many small business owners are basically "unemployable" in that, they want to do things their way, not the boss's way. This could go on all day.

Be that at is may, I went downtown for three different items (ok, four if you count the oil change). All four were closed and I was greatly inconvenienced. I had to drive to the mall then to Crossroads (which were both busy) to concluded my business. I found this inconvenience greatly upsetting :evil: and wrote my post in anger. Hopefully, some of these "downtowners" will see this post and make some changes.

Wuptdo B-)

[kellyc]

Having grown up in this state, it has always seemed to be practice for local business in the downtown area to close up early on Saturdays and to be closed on Sundays. Im not sure it is right, but I am sure a lot of it has to do with the Sunday church thing.

Something else to take into account, often places such as Crossroads and the Mall have contracts with tenants requiring them to be open for specific hours.

However I think you would find that if owners sensed more people were looking to do business downtown they would have better hours. if there were more people eating lunch downtown on the weekends, etc....Its one of those catch-22 things.

[Wuptdo]

Kelly,

It is some of a "Blue Law" thing and some still thinking Cary is still a farm community. Traditionally farmers in the South do their business in town around the Noon hour. Thus most business's kept "Banker's Hours."

However, down in Fuquay-Varina, we had to try to convince multi-generational store owners that they could no longer close their doors at 5pm and not open on weekends. Once they realized that F-V, was now a bedroom community, some of them changed and stayed in business. My last pass thru F-V, showed that many of the "old timers" were gone.

Here were some of the simple recommendations that we made:

Instead of 9 to 5 hours, open from 11 to 7 pm
Open Saturday from 10 to 6 pm
Open Sunday from 1 to 6 pm (limited Blue laws then).

The biggest trouble with F-V is that it is really two towns that share a post office. So we had two distinct downtowns within a mile-an-half from each other. Adding to the fun, was long time "multi-generational" family feuds that wrestled for control of the town. It wasn't till the "outsiders" came and took over that real progress was made in F-V.

Wuptdo B-)

[Wuptdo]

I have been considering for a long time about opening a shop downtown. Probably around the 200 block of S.Academy street. I would love to rent one of those houses. So let me pick you minds for a moment on this idea.

Should I go franchise or do my own "thing?"

If I go franchise I have been considering either "Adam & Eve" or "Pricilla’s". I think either would be a good blend with existing downtown stores and both have good name recognition.

But to cover the diverse needs of Cary's population an independent store featuring "B & D," "S & M," "speciality leather," and maybe adult reading material & toys might be the ticket to success in downtown Cary. :grin: And rest assured, I will be open Sunday morning at 10 am and open late on Friday and Saturday nites!

Thoughts and comments?

Wuptdo B-)

Only 25 to go!

[Karen]

No Karen, I will keep to my assumption of "stupid, lazy or stinking rich." Wuptdo B-)

I guess i will just tell my girlfriend, who owns a shop downtown, that she is stupid, lazy and stinking rich. I'm sure she's not aware of any of this. Especially the stinking rich part. :lol:

Wup, I know first hand the sacrifices of running a small business. As you pointed out my husband owns one. And in running a business you make choices that may not make sense to someone that doesn't put their blood, sweat and tears into it day after day. Obviously you know this first hand as well. My point being is that you can't just put a label on a person as being stupid, lazy or stinking rich just because of a business choice they make with their OWN business. This labeling is what i have an issue with. Not the fact that you were inconvienced, and frustrated. I agree, it makes business sense to be open on the weekends for a retail or service shop, but I don't know the reasons these shops are not open. Maybe there is more to the story here than "laziness". And if these folk are stinking rich...god bless them for making wonderful business choices that allows them TO be closed on the weekends. 8O :D

Just my thought's Wup... Just as you have yours.

Karen

[Karen]

Sacrifice.
I think your husband would agree with me on that point. Being a small business owner means giving up many things, including a family life. If you can't make the "family life" sacrifice, then get a "real" job (9 to 5 type).Wuptdo B-)

No, you don't have to sacrifice your family life by being a small business owner... You just have to make it work differently... :wink:

Karen

[StanN]

Wuptdo,

Re franchises and other ideas you may have, suggest you call SCORE, 856-4739 to schedule counseling session. Suggest you closely evaluate what you are buying when you buy a franchise. Ongoing franchise fee is often 50% of pre-tax profit. Some franchises, particularly those that create demand, are worth it - but many are not and what you are buying can be accomplished less expensively. A franchise is NOT a silver-bullet way of making a profit.

stan