How about a law...

[johnb]

Granting immunity from/against involuntary annexation to any unincorporated area within a county if the residents of that county segregate the costs of county services between residents of munincipalities and the unincorporated areas. Such that munincipal residents are not taxed to provide any county service with the exception of the county schools unless that munincipality creates it's own school system. Once established the county will be responsible for the construction and maintenance of all roads in the county except Interstate highways, US Highways, and roads within the borders of the munincipalities.

If, say, Cary were to create it's own school system Cary residents would no longer be obligated to pay any Wake County taxes. Concurrently, Rono, et al, would never have to fear involuntary annexation into the city of Cary. Any thoughts? Who would have the most to loose or gain from this change?

[Cathy]

Separating the County provided services from the municipal provided services is not as simple as that!
The County provides more than just schools for the cities.
Maybe you should try to convince the County to take over more of the governance and decisions now handled by cities and make the cities less autonomous. You know_just an area name, like a suburb of Philly.

Cathy

[Rono]

test

[johnb]

rono,

If you really believe that I'd say we should press the divorce issue with old Nelson Dollar. Cary taxpayers would make out like bandits not being burdened subsidizing the unincorporated areas of Wake County. The munincpalities could just as easily and probably more efficiently run those same "services" if they're even needed at all on their own. Muninicipalities in many northern states do those types of things anyway. It's nothing new or unusual. Cary, Raleigh, Apex, et al could have their own or joint birth/death certificate registrar, for instance. The only people that would be harmed financially are the people in the unincorporated areas. Since you all refuse to be annexed there is no reason for Cary residents to subsidize your local services. Pay your own way.

The you folks have to pay your own way with roads, police, etc... will be the day you start petitioning Cary City Council to be annexed.

[Cathy]

John,

It is disappointing to see you, of all people, seem to forget the basic issue of property rights, freedom of choice, and less government as you take this stand in opposition to Rono!

I lived up north where the schools were not under a County or regional system, and I do not see where this type of system is the big problem that some people around here make it out to be. Other than the "segregationist" fears that those in favor of the public school system throw out against de-centralizing the schools, both systems have their positives and negatives, and I tend to favor privatizing the school system as much as possible, while making certain that educational opportunities are available for all children.

As far as the road funding goes, it is much more complicated than anyone arguing here seems to take into consideration. Never the less, part of the responsibility that the municipalities take onto themselves when they incorporate is providing various infrastructure to their citizens. They don't have to do that, but they usually do because it makes political hay with the citizens whose demands and expectations are on a constant spiral upward. It's the "quality of life" issue, you know. Why don't you look into how much Federal/State road money the Town has collected and how much of that they have siphoned off for bike lanes, bike racks, greenways and pedestrian facilities, and then come back and complain about whether anyone should have a right to opt out of the municipal "quality of life" game.

Please do approach Nelson on how he would stand in regard to more decentralization of services from the County to the Cities. I'd love to hear his answer. I'm all for it. I'll take my chances on what that would leave me in regards to infrastructure. It would probably be a great trade off in order to have less governmental intrusion into my property rights. I could litter my yard with signs to my hearts content, paint my house shocking pink, and cut down all the trees if I so desired. My neighbors may not think too much of me after that, and I know that I wouldn't actually do those things, BUT I COULD, and that would make me happy. I'd even risk the possibility that my next door neighbor WOULD do all of those things.

John, you know when you chose to move into the city limits you volunteered to become a part of all that the city chooses to spend money on. You have avenues open to you to try and change what they spend money on. I hope that you use them. I don't support the spending choices of Cary, and I want to keep the right to be no part of it.

Cathy

[johnb]

It is disappointing to see you, of all people, seem to forget the basic issue of property rights, freedom of choice, and less government as you take this stand in opposition to Rono!

I've not changed Cathy. I'm that last person that advocates inflicting the Cary city council on anyone. However, I am also against the current system where the unincorporated areas are heavily subsidized by the munincipalities. Minus annexation it's a dead issue, but when folks like Rono complain about the financial aspects of annexation it's hypocrisy at it's finest. His taxes are low because services in the unincorporated areas are heavily subsidized by the munincipalities, such as the Sherriff's department. Why should Cary residents pay for it? They don't come if I call 911. I'm all in favor of giving the unincorporated areas a permanent grant of immunity against annexation, in exchange for fixing the problem of imbalanced funding. Rono can't have his cake and eat it too. Don't say no to annexation while demanding the residents of the munincipality subsidize the unincorporated areas. To block annexation while insisting on the current funding scheme is unethical.

"...and I tend to favor privatizing the school system as much as possible, while making certain that educational opportunities are available for all children."

Same here. Rono threw out a cynical and bigoted stereotype, one of those "everyone knows" lines. Jim Crow is a dead issue and the use by demogogues on the left of it is merely formulaic. It serves no purpose but to insult and inflame.

Why don't you look into how much Federal/State road money the Town has collected and how much of that they have siphoned off for bike lanes, bike racks, greenways and pedestrian facilities, and then come back and complain about whether anyone should have a right to opt out of the municipal "quality of life" game.

I would be the last one to rush the barricades in defense of the honor and intelligence of the Cary city council and those other folks on the city payroll. My answer would be non-numeric, "A LOT". But, the unincorporated areas could incorporate if they so desired or plead for annexation. By doing so they are in effect voting on bike lanes.

Please do approach Nelson on how he would stand in regard to more decentralization of services from the County to the Cities. I'd love to hear his answer. I'm all for it. I'll take my chances on what that would leave me in regards to infrastructure.

Your position is reasonable and oddly enough is pretty close to mine. I just add the caveat that each jurisdiction must pay for it's own local "services". Let the state handle things of statewide importance but break it down to the lowest level possible beyond that.


John, you know when you chose to move into the city limits you volunteered to become a part of all that the city chooses to spend money on.

Yep. That's why I don't support involuntary annexation. I don't believe in inflicting the J@ck@$$e$ on the Cary City Council on anyone involuntarily. However, that said, what's going on now ain't fair. It ain't right that Cary residents subsidize the unincorporated areas while we have to listen to their activists fight annexation on financial grounds. Our taxes go to build their local roads, but they fight annexation on the grounds that they don't want to pay for the bonds used to build Cary roads. I see a problem and it's correctible.

[Cathy]

John,

Most of this problem with inequity of funding for services has arisen in Wake County simply because there is more real estate here that has been incorporated into municipalities. In other Counties where most of the County IS County, it's not the big problem that it is here. And it is a problem that should be addressed without taking away the right to live outside of an incorporated area. It will probably end up being resolved by converting the whole County to a County/City governance. the Statutes make provision for it and it looks inevitiable to me for Wake.
At that point I my next move will be to get as far away from all of these tax subsidized "amenities" as I can get.


But, the unincorporated areas could incorporate if they so desired or plead for annexation. By doing so they are in effect voting on bike lanes.

This is not actually the case anymore. The Legislature has made it very difficult to incorporate new cities and this is something that has come to pass only in the last four years. Lang lobbied hard for that change. Swift Creek is feeling the results. All surrounding municipalities have to sign off in agreement to allow a new incorporation. This was done to stop areas from incorporating in order to escape involuntary annexation. Guess who is the holdout on allowing Swift Creek incorporation to move forward?

Lang chose to loan your money to the State and your Council makes that decision to pay for State road improvements inside the city rather than see them deteriorate. I don't want Cary to fix the roads in Medfield and if the city benefits by making access to the businesses in Town much more attractive, that is something that shouldn't be ignored here either.

The Sheriff's Dept. doesn't respond to your 911 call because you as a municipal resident have decided that your needs can be provided better by your municipality. The continued taxing for the Sherrif's Dept. is more complicated than who responds, and was a known factor when the Town created their own police dept. Now it's an issue???

We shouldn't need a "grant of immunity" against annexation in a trade off for something else. This is a property rights issue that should be defended on it's own merit as a right, not a priviledge.

And please explain how incorporation is "...in effect voting on bike lanes."

Cathy

[johnb]

We shouldn't need a "grant of immunity" against annexation in a trade off for something else. This is a property rights issue that should be defended on it's own merit as a right, not a priviledge.

So should I still be compelled to pay county taxes to support Sherriff's deputies to patrol the unincorporated areas of Wake County even though I don't live there? Why should I subsidize the construction/maintenance of local roads in unincorporated areas while simultaneously renouncing the only possible bargaining chip the munincipalities have? Annexation is legal under current state law. You guys want that changed. Fine. How about meeting the residents of the munincipality halfway. You folks can block annexation in exchange for correcting the funding imbalance. Unincorporated areas can't block annexation and keep taking money from munincipal residents simultaneously. Cary/Raleigh residents should not be taxed to pay for "services" we are not allowed access to. We can't get a deputy sherriff to come out if we call 911 yet we still pay for it.

[johnb]

-First is the County Court system, Since probably 80 + percent

Where do you get these numbers? Before commenting I'd be interested in seeing what impact the "Court Costs" imposed against anyone that walks near a Judge does to offset the expenses. Traffic court can be quite lucrative. Frankly, I'd rather Cary had it's own if for no other reason than the theives in robes would be local theives spending their loot in our zip code.

Social services, Mental Health, Register of deeds Enviromental Services, Birth and Death Certificates County Board of elections Substance abuse services Sherriffs Department Library services Landfill service Marrage license department Coroner more deaths in the city Veterans Services

ALL THESE ARE SERVICES PROVIDED AT THE COUNTY LEVEL!

AND WHO USES THE MOST OF THEM...THE CITIES!!

I have no problem with the munincipalities picking up all of these. We are all ready paying for them. You keep noting that "cities use it more" but you fail miserably to note that the residents of the munincipalities pay for more than their fair share based on usage. County taxes are based on property taxes. Property valuations are higher in Cary and Raleigh than in New Hill. As such we disproportionatly pay for "services" at the county level. Even "services" we can't use such as the Sherriff's department. The cities are, in effect, subsidizing county residents. Like it or not Wake County would still do all those things after the munincipalities pulled out it's just then that you folks would have to pay the full cost of your own "Services". Being the nice guy I am, "Give the People what they want", that's my motto, I support you in this Rono! You folks in the unincorporated areas should not have to suffer munincipal residents subsidizing your government "services"! You deserve the right to pay for exactly the government you have without outside subsidies keeping your property taxes artificially low.

Beware of what you ask for my friend, sometimes you get it.

[johnb]

Why don't you look into how much Federal/State road money the Town has collected and how much of that they have siphoned off for bike lanes, bike racks, greenways and pedestrian facilities, and then come back and complain about whether anyone should have a right to opt out of the municipal "quality of life" game.

I would be the last one to rush the barricades in defense of the honor and intelligence of the Cary city council and those other folks on the city payroll. My answer would be non-numeric, "A LOT". But, the unincorporated areas could incorporate if they so desired or plead for annexation. By doing so they are in effect voting on bike lanes.

Cathy,

I just meant that by living outside of a munincipality they were, in effect, voting on the need/desireability of bike lanes (among a raft of other issues). Whether the Feds do or don't offer money to various jursidictions for those items is really a separate question.

[Cathy]

We shouldn't need a "grant of immunity" against annexation in a trade off for something else. This is a property rights issue that should be defended on it's own merit as a right, not a priviledge.

So should I still be compelled to pay county taxes to support Sherriff's deputies to patrol the unincorporated areas of Wake County even though I don't live there? Why should I subsidize the construction/maintenance of local roads in unincorporated areas while simultaneously renouncing the only possible bargaining chip the munincipalities have? Annexation is legal under current state law. You guys want that changed. Fine. How about meeting the residents of the munincipality halfway. You folks can block annexation in exchange for correcting the funding imbalance. Unincorporated areas can't block annexation and keep taking money from munincipal residents simultaneously. Cary/Raleigh residents should not be taxed to pay for "services" we are not allowed access to. We can't get a deputy sherriff to come out if we call 911 yet we still pay for it.

What a co-incidence that I should receive my property tax bill in the mail today. And the N&O should happen to print a relevant artcle in todays paper.
Let's see, nearly 77% of the taxes collected from me are paying for the Wake Schools. I have no school age children, they received most of their schooling from a rural school in Ohio (not under a County system), some in Rock Hill SC, (pretty sure it was a municipal school district) and one child finished high school in the Orange Co. schools (not in Chapel Hill).
I'm not going to complain that I am still paying for everyone elses children to attend school, even though I would like to see the schools go back to local private funding and I think the Public schools leave much to be desired as far as the education that the students end up getting.
But Lord that would never happen because "everybody Knows" that if you give the control of the schools to some town like Cary, they will use it to "segregate" the schools! I heard Goldboro was fighting annexation because they are afraid it will force them to send their children to segregated schools! (Yeah, sure)

Not quite 1% helps support Wake Tech, and this is an amenity that reaches beyond municipal borders. I don't mind supporting the school being available for all of us, and even people who don't even live in Wake Co! Is this something you object to helping finance also?

I pay a fee for the fire district that you don't have to help pay for, and I pay a residential waste reduction fee that I've no idea if you have to pay that too. A small part of this money goes to "environmental services", and clearly Cary citizens are strong supporters of anything that has "the environment" connected to it.
22% of the Co. tax bill I'm looking at is for County services and support of the County Capital Program. I would imagine that the land aquisition project for the prairie restoration that the newspaper article highlighted was part of what I, and you, are helping to pay for with the 6.645% of County taxes paying the Capital Program. If this bothers you perhaps we should make sure that we gather more support for voting down these County Bond issues in the future.

After looking at this, with the lower number of students in the un-incorporated areas, I might even come out better on this if the municipalities did have autonomous school systems. It might be a trade I would gladly take for me to stop subsidizing Cary schoolchildren (and Raleigh's, and Wake Forest's and Apex, and Fuquay and Morrisville and BFE-ville's children) and you stop subsidizing any road maintenance in the County.
And I still think that all of this argument here about who's subsidizing whom when it comes to roads, is suffering from a lack of comprehensive understanding about who gets money from where, for what.
Should everyone in the United States protest the fact that we have all financed the "Poop pelletizer" for the exclusive use of TOC? (thanks D. Price!)
Even though it is so much easier to talk from the sound bites that others want to feed us, (instead of researching the facts of the matter), it does this discussion no constructive good.

All of these staunch, loyal defenders of economic justice for the municipalities should get a fight going between the County government and the City governments, instead of conscripting unwilling citizens to take on the financial burdens of the past decisions made by your elected representatives.

[johnb]

Let's see, nearly 77% of the taxes collected from me are paying for the Wake Schools.

And that's fair. The school system district your home is in is the WCPSS. You'd have a point if you paid property taxes to support the Carrboro school system while your home was located in the WCPSS district and your kids were forced to go to the WCPSS. I pay property taxes to support the emergency services for a jurisdiction that will not respond to a 911 call from my house. I'm not saying the Durham police should respond, I'm not paying them tax money. I am paying Wake County property taxes but I have as much a chance of getting a Durham cop to my house as I do a Wake County Sherriff's deputy.

Is this something you object to helping finance also?

Personally? Yes, but the WCPSS does such a bad job of actually educating
it's victims that I don't see that we have any recourse available but to continue funding it. These kids have to learn to read somewhere. :twisted:

Should everyone in the United States protest the fact that we have all financed the "Poop pelletizer" for the exclusive use of TOC? (thanks D. Price!)

No! Visibility is the first step though. Everyone needs to be aware of what government actually costs. These animals have gone to great lengths to conceal the truth burden of government to the American people. I saw a breakdown recently on public radio/tv. These creeps run their beg a thons claiming they get almost no government money. Big lie. They funnel government money through the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and other such vehicles then claim it is NOT a government handout, it's a "corporate donation". The whole system is rotten and the first step is to always pare it back, decentralize it, break it down, advertize it's costs.

If Cary is not going to have an interest in Medfield, ie, it could never be annexed, it isn't ethical for Cary residents to be hit for the cost of repaving the streets, plowing the streets, etc...etc....

As long as Cary could possibly annex Medfield it is ethical to expect Cary residents to chip in to build / maintain the roads and such in Medfield.

Remove the possibility of annexation we should have that burden of chipping in to pay for you government "services" removed as well.

[Anonymous]

Let's see, nearly 77% of the taxes collected from me are paying for the Wake Schools.

And that's fair. The school system district your home is in is the WCPSS. You'd have a point if you paid property taxes to support the Carrboro school system while your home was located in the WCPSS district and your kids were forced to go to the WCPSS.

The point that I am trying to make with this is that if you and I pay the same proportion of taxes to Wake County, and we are both paying 77% of it for the schools, that doesn't leave a whole lot for "services" that some Wake citizens should feel are unfair. The portion that is left that covers services that you as a municipal citizen, pay for but don't need/use is miniscule. And since the County doesn't have anything to do with road maintenance, the supposed inequity of municipalities bearing some unfair financial burden because of the County tax and governance is more smoke and mirrors put forth by greedy politicians who want to control more peoples lives and collect more money from more people to do it. Maybe the answer is for the Town of Cary citizens to UN-incorporate. It's not unheard of or illegal. There's a perfect opportunity to start dismantling some unnecessary government!
Road funding has never been and never will be "fair" because it is overseen by government and it is a pot of money that politicians can get their hands on.
Let's get to the best truth possible about road funding and look at some of the financial advantages that being a municipality qualifies it for.
I know that Cary planners sure looked forward to the extra Powell Bill funding that could be gained by annexing all the roads in the target neighborhoods, but it still didn't help offset the costs of redeveloping those neighborhoods for a very long time into the future.

Cathy

[johnb]

"...and we are both paying 77% of it for the schools, that doesn't leave a whole lot for "services" that some Wake citizens should feel are unfair."

That depends, 23% is not much proportionally, but it is significant dollar wise. Besides, I don't believe I've ever said I thought the school budget was sacrosanct. There's as much fraud there as in any government budget. Money not spent directly on classroom instruction for educationallly impactive classes (not band, not auto mechanics, etc..) should not be lumped in with money spent on English, Math, Science, etc.. they're not the same.

There's a perfect opportunity to start dismantling some unnecessary government!

I think you overlook the value of fairly apportioning the costs of government Cathy. I don't believe the amount is huge, however, if we're going to honestly asses the impact of government we first have to understand, all of us, how much the Leviathan hurts every family. The status quo does a great job of masking the harm of overtaxation by concealing the price we pay for these so called "services". Not only that, but even though the dollar amount may be, in your words, miniscule, it's still not right that residents within the munincipalities get shouldered with a portion of the bill for "services" in the UA. Yet residents in the UA routinely claim that part of the reason they move there is to avoid paying for "services" they don't want in the muni's.

Road funding has never been and never will be "fair" because it is overseen by government and it is a pot of money that politicians can get their hands on.

DINGDINGDINGDING!!!! Todays Winner is Cathy! Cathy your prize is political enlightenment and an unadultered, sober perspective on the human condition. Your family and neighbors will now both fear and loath you! Congratulations!

I know that Cary planners sure looked forward to the extra Powell Bill funding that could be gained by annexing all the roads in the target neighborhoods,

That's something I am afraid of and I fear is probably correct, ie, they create a budget with the expectation of successfull annexations bringing in the cash to help float the bond issues the fools in Cary rubber stamp for the crooks at city hall.

[Brent]

So, Rono, if the municipalities were to take over all these services, where would that leave the unincorporated areas? Without schools, libraries and everything else, wouldn't it?

And wouldn't that mean that everyone would need to be part of some municipality to get any services?

[StanN]

RONO says:


First is the County Court system, Since probably 80 + percent of the court is used by People who live in the cities, I think the cities should foot that county bill No sence us in the county paying for all those inner city problems

Stan says: that is close enough to the actual ratio of those in muni's and those in UA's - we all rely on the courts - leave the funding alone.


Social services, theres another that falls into the cities responsibility. The Halafax Courts and all areas like that are in the city so cities should foot those bills as well.

Mental Health, how much of the county uses this service? I think the cities should pay the percentage they use this as well.

Stan says: Typical of the biased attitude of those in the UA. Mental disorders and wife beatings never occur among the UA elite. Bull!


Enviromental Services, since the cities keep polluting the rivers with developement run off, this bill as well goes to the cities

Stan says: Say outrageous things and the public will believe you. The greatest % of the bill for env. services has to do with wells, septic systems,
small community utilities, stream buffers and crossings in the UA, stormwater, protecting the surface water supply. The muni's supply these services for themselves but do not separate them out as a separate service. The county has NO jurisdiction over similar services and regulations in the muni's. Both the counties and the cities share the responsibility to each other for protecting the environment. Polluted air and water know no man-made boundaries. Based on what Cary does versus Wake, Cary takes the issue more seriously.

In the eyes of the state, the counties do not have hierarchal powers over the muni's. They are PEERS - and the state tells each of them what powers they have within their jurisdiction - with a few exceptions such as schools, courts and human welfare where only the counties have a role mandated by the state.

As to schools - EVERYONE benefits from an educated populace - including those businesses where the folks in the UA have their jobs. Including RONO who hires folks from the public schools. Including anyone on this board who has the skills to cut through the bull in RONO's latest posting. It is strictly a WE/THEY point of view. Where is the sense of COMMUNITY? Folks in the UA and the muni's face the same kinds of problems and issues. They each should pay their fair share. Is RONO different and entitled to a subsidy because he lives across the street from me? Gimmeabreak!!!

Stan

[Cathy]

Stan says: Say outrageous things and the public will believe you. The greatest % of the bill for env. services has to do with wells, septic systems,
small community utilities, stream buffers and crossings in the UA, stormwater, protecting the surface water supply. The muni's supply these services for themselves but do not separate them out as a separate service. The county has NO jurisdiction over similar services and regulations in the muni's. Both the counties and the cities share the responsibility to each other for protecting the environment. Polluted air and water know no man-made boundaries. Based on what Cary does versus Wake, Cary takes the issue more seriously.

The "environmental services" fraction of everyones County Tax Bill is much less than a half a percent of the total bill. And Stan, you are doing all that you can to make this portion of the Wake Tax seem like it is SOOO much bigger! What was your opening sentence to this paragraph?

Yes, I see examples of your statement about pollution knowing know boundaries every time I read about another sewage spill coming from either Raleigh or Cary's municipal waste system. These spills usually end up affecting quite a bit of the UA, and well beyond, whenever they occur, which seems fairly regularly. Sewage from hundreds of thousands of households released into the watersheds. The spills flow and homeowners on the system keep flushing away because they have no way to know that there is a problem.

When a single family home has a failure of a septic system, at least it is one household's worth of sewage, the system becomes unusable, and the expense of the repair and clean up is born for the most part by the owner of the failed system.
Isn't in your interest also to help fund the County to ensure that systems are properly installed, and failures found quickly? Less than 1/2 % of your Wake Tax bill for this and you carry on like you are being robbed!

You would rather see all septic systems (working or not) abandoned so these households can add MORE sewage to the municipal systems that regularly dump sewage all over our environment???

I don't use a lot of the services provided through the County, but I will gladly help pay for them.

[Rono]

test