Morrisville and Park West project

[Icorpse]

As I was reading the Cary News this week, my attention shifted to Morrisville and the Park West project. It is very near where I live and I think it will have a distinct impact on quality of life in Cary as well. Wondering what the members of the board think about this project and the elections in Morrisville in general? I must confess, I have not been keeping up with this development. However, given that I spend over 15 minutes in traffic every time I try to cross that particular intersection during rush hours, I have to wonder how much worse is it going to get?

[Brent]

There's a separate thread on this in "Local Issues".

I, for one, believe that Morrisville is engaging in the same mistakes that Cary has engaged in in the past 4 years.

One wonders if Morrisville's electorate will make the same corrections that Cary's did. I hope so.

[Cathy]

There's a separate thread on this in "Local Issues".

I, for one, believe that Morrisville is engaging in the same mistakes that Cary has engaged in in the past 4 years.

One wonders if Morrisville's electorate will make the same corrections that Cary's did. I hope so.

Since Morrisville fairly recently hired Ben Hitchings as their head planner, it is no surprise that they are now pushing the high density "Smart" Growth on steriods.
Mr. Hitchings has been pushing 'Smart Growth' in NC for over ten years. He's been involved in so many State (and national) organizations that are working to implement it.
Just run a Google search on his name.

Ben Hitchings. John Holtzclaw. Brett Hulsey. Deron Lovaas. Bill Myers. Project Coordinator. Deron Lovaas. Director,Environmental Quality Program. Ed Hopkins ...
www.sierraclub.org/sprawl/50statesurvey/SmartChoices.pdf
Smart Growth "smarts" all right, but it isn't actually all that intelligent, as the citizens of Cary have found out as they have seen their community charactor and quality of life eroding.

Cathy

[StanN]

Cathy,

Put aside your bias about "smart growth" and consider the following facts.

The price of land around Cary has gone up 2x-3x in five years...far faster than most folks income. Ditto for construction materials. Either these costs must be passed through to buyers, putting the traditional single family home out of reach for many - or land has to be used in a more efficient economic fashion, i.e. greater density.

Also consider that the job world, particularly in high-tech Cary, has become more precarious. Also consider that public confidence in their economic future is declining.Fewer want to tie themselves down to a big home with a big mortgage, particularly if the location is not near a job center like RTP.

Also consider that the price of gasoline has roughly doubled + the roads are becoming more and more congested. Commuting long distances is becoming less and less attractive.

The only counter-trend is the active senior market. But it is asmall pct. of the total.

This adds up to greater density, more central locations and more rentals. It is not an evil scheme by the AMA and the NCLM...its the market that is driving the move to density, smaller residences and more central locations. Whether you see the glass as half empty or half full is up to you, but these economic forces are driving the changes we all see.

Yes, the American Dream is still alive for many..a house in the "country with a big yard for the dog and the kids...but it is colliding with economic reality. Unfortunately many who reached too far will lose their homes.

StanN

[DarylB]

Cathy,

Put aside your bias about "smart growth" and consider the following facts.

The price of land around Cary has gone up 2x-3x in five years...far faster than most folks income. Ditto for construction materials. Either these costs must be passed through to buyers, putting the traditional single family home out of reach for many - or land has to be used in a more efficient economic fashion, i.e. greater density.

Also consider that the job world, particularly in high-tech Cary, has become more precarious. Also consider that public confidence in their economic future is declining.Fewer want to tie themselves down to a big home with a big mortgage, particularly if the location is not near a job center like RTP.

Also consider that the price of gasoline has roughly doubled + the roads are becoming more and more congested. Commuting long distances is becoming less and less attractive.

The only counter-trend is the active senior market. But it is asmall pct. of the total.

This adds up to greater density, more central locations and more rentals. It is not an evil scheme by the AMA and the NCLM...its the market that is driving the move to density, smaller residences and more central locations. Whether you see the glass as half empty or half full is up to you, but these economic forces are driving the changes we all see.

Yes, the American Dream is still alive for many..a house in the "country with a big yard for the dog and the kids...but it is colliding with economic reality. Unfortunately many who reached too far will lose their homes.

StanN

The American Dream is fine. It's government and the taxman that is trying like hell to kill it. And it is government that keeps trying to force more people into smaller and smaller boxes, while taking more and more from them for "the tax base". Less taxe, fewer laws, and fewer Stan Norwalk's with big egos and a dirth of useful ideas.

[Cathy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Stan......

Evidently, people are still looking for and are willing to pay for the same thing that you bought; a single family home with a front and back yard, convenient but removed from the shopping center and workplace.

It must not seem like a dream to be forced by whatever "reality" you cite to cram together in martin housing conditions in the middle of a shopping mall.

My bias against "Smart"(sic)Growth is better described as downright disdain, thank you. Clearly I'm not alone in having a negative opinion of the high density mixed use CR%P that is being forced on neighborhoods all over Cary.

Why don't you move into one of these future ghettos, Stan?

Cathy

[Icorpse]

Cathy,

Put aside your bias about "smart growth" and consider the following facts.

The price of land around Cary has gone up 2x-3x in five years...far faster than most folks income. Ditto for construction materials. Either these costs must be passed through to buyers, putting the traditional single family home out of reach for many - or land has to be used in a more efficient economic fashion, i.e. greater density.

Also consider that the job world, particularly in high-tech Cary, has become more precarious. Also consider that public confidence in their economic future is declining.Fewer want to tie themselves down to a big home with a big mortgage, particularly if the location is not near a job center like RTP.

Also consider that the price of gasoline has roughly doubled + the roads are becoming more and more congested. Commuting long distances is becoming less and less attractive.

The only counter-trend is the active senior market. But it is asmall pct. of the total.

This adds up to greater density, more central locations and more rentals. It is not an evil scheme by the AMA and the NCLM...its the market that is driving the move to density, smaller residences and more central locations. Whether you see the glass as half empty or half full is up to you, but these economic forces are driving the changes we all see.

Yes, the American Dream is still alive for many..a house in the "country with a big yard for the dog and the kids...but it is colliding with economic reality. Unfortunately many who reached too far will lose their homes.

StanN

I do not think mixed use, high-density developments are the answer we are seeking. What will adding 30,000 more cars to the problems you mentioned above do to quality of life?

[Rich]

This adds up to greater density, more central locations and more rentals. It is not an evil scheme by the AMA and the NCLM...its the market that is driving the move to density, smaller residences and more central locations.

StanNPlease cite your sources for this. I see no evidence of any desire driven move away from the suburban standard. There may be need driven increases as the economy sours, but that isn't the same thing. That isn't market driven so much as it it the result of an economic downturn.

[Jackie]

I do not think mixed use, high-density developments are the answer we are seeking. What will adding 30,000 more cars to the problems you mentioned above do to quality of life?

Good question.

Certainly, the applicant will provide some road improvements. OTOH, NCDOT isn't in any big hurry to fix up NC 54, and Morrisville doesn't have the cash needed to do it. Nor the interest. But there's always the less expensive $8.5M option to extend Crabtree Crossing. If the development adds $600,000 yearly to the town's coffers, and if not a penny of it is spent, Morrisville could pay for the CC extension in just 14 short years.

Jackie

[johnshaw]

But there's always the less expensive $8.5M option to extend Crabtree Crossing. If the development adds $600,000 yearly to the town's coffers, and if not a penny of it is spent, Morrisville could pay for the CC extension in just 14 short years. As long as the project has a full entrance off NC54 and a light on NC54 near the existing Cary Parkway signal, traffic will be entering and leaving the area using NC54. NC45/Cary Parkway is already a problem; this project will only make that intersection, and NC54 through Morrisville, more of a problem.

[johnb]

The only counter-trend is the active senior market. But it is asmall pct. of the total.

Stan,

I believe God already has a waiting room. It's called FLORIDA.

Many of us fled my home state because of the grey invasion.

Instead of recruiting, we should be deporting. I don't think we need more people going -20% of the posted speed limit on any and every road they travel. I don't think we need people who come to a complete stop on the road in order to make a right turn into a parking lot. I just don't think Cary needs anymore people who have 2,000 word sentences without a verb, or a point.

Those negatively impact our quality of life. :wink:

JohnB

[johnb]

I do not think mixed use, high-density developments are the answer we are seeking. What will adding 30,000 more cars to the problems you mentioned above do to quality of life?


That high density development is actually quite out of character with what Cary originally was. It was something foisted on us by Mayor Lang and his allies on the Council. Including Harold Weinbrecht. If Harold is honest and serious with us he will start by pushing to reform/repeal Lang's high density overlays and planning ordinances.

I won't be holding my breath.

[johnshaw]

I believe God already has a waiting room. It's called FLORIDA.

Many of us fled my home state because of the grey invasion.

Instead of recruiting, we should be deporting.

You might get old some day. I am certainly planning to. Compared to the alternative, getting old is better. I am also not planning to leave.

I agree that we should not be recruiting.

[johnb]

john,

I do not understand our city planners when they compare Cary's demographic model to some abract model (or maybe the model of another city, I'm not sure which) and decide we "NEED" more of a certain demographic. What's more, it is still a mystery to me how it is that city government came to see itself as the Demographic Chef to this municipal cake.

I've argued before, too Ernie even, that Cary should play to its' strengths. Retirees aren't in that equation. We had the dumbest municipal slogan a while back: "Celebrate Cary'. Was it a command? A suggestion? How many thousands of other towns, citys, states, etc... have "Celebrate East Podunk" as their slogan? Cary: Where RTP Lives. That plays to our strength and sorry, no retirees.

The point is, this is not a retirement hot spot, there is no reason for it to be. It is an R&D center, it is an engineering center, it is all that and more.

[johnshaw]

john,

I do not understand our city planners when they compare Cary's demographic model to some abract model (or maybe the model of another city, I'm not sure which) and decide we "NEED" more of a certain demographic. What's more, it is still a mystery to me how it is that city government came to see itself as the Demographic Chef to this municipal cake.

I've argued before, too Ernie even, that Cary should play to its' strengths. Retirees aren't in that equation. We had the dumbest municipal slogan a while back: "Celebrate Cary'. Was it a command? A suggestion? How many thousands of other towns, citys, states, etc... have "Celebrate East Podunk" as their slogan? Cary: Where RTP Lives. That plays to our strength and sorry, no retirees.

The point is, this is not a retirement hot spot, there is no reason for it to be. It is an R&D center, it is an engineering center, it is all that and more.

A developer, who apparently wanted to be the Demographic Chef, once told me that a certain part of town did not have enough young adults--twenty somethings who were single or didn't yet have kids. Most people in the area either had school age kids or their kids were grown. That developer was trying to tell the people in the area that they needed more night life with businesses open late at night to attract these young people the area "needed". Of course, that developer wanted to provide the night life (as a public service, of course).

I don't like unelected people, who cannot be thrown out of office, telling a neighborhood what they should be.

I am an engineer who works close to RTP. But I have no problem with retired people (which I plan to become one day). They don't have kids in school and don't add to the rush hour commute on the roads to RTP.

Cary doesn't need promotion to get people to live here. If we continue to be a nice place to live we will have more than enough people moving here to replace those who move or die.

I don't think we need a slogan. But if we have to have one, how about "If you build it they will come. But if you don't they won't. So don't."

[Jackie]

As long as the project has a full entrance off NC54 and a light on NC54 near the existing Cary Parkway signal, traffic will be entering and leaving the area using NC54. NC45/Cary Parkway is already a problem; this project will only make that intersection, and NC54 through Morrisville, more of a problem.

The TIA traffic distribution changed in July to:

17% to/from the west on NC 54
18% to/from the east on NC 54
13% to/from the north on Cary Pkwy
27% to/from the south on Cary Pkwy
25% to/from the west on Morrisville Pkwy

35% from NC 54, 40% from Cary Pkwy and 25% from Morrisville Pkwy.

Kimley-Horn attributes much traffic from internal and pass by capture, and I don't know enough to argue that point. Their analysis indicates that 2010 background traffic without Park West will cause the NC 54/Cary Pkwy intersection to function at a level of service F in the AM, with a wait of 104 seconds. They maintain that if Park West is built and their improvements made......... the LOS changes to E with only a 74 second wait.

PM traffic is even better. Currently, the LOS is F with a wait of 146. 2010, no Park West, F with a wait of 199. 2010 with Park West and recommended improvements: LOS D with a wait of 54.

Seems to me we should make the recommended intersection improvements and not add the extra 20,000 or (or 34,000) car trips expected from Park West.

Jackie

[johnshaw]

Jackie,

How would I get a copy of the TIA? Is it on-line?

I plan to attend the Monday night meeting as well as the Thursday night public hearing. Do you know the purpose of the Monday night meeting?

John

[Jackie]

Jackie,

How would I get a copy of the TIA? Is it on-line?

I plan to attend the Monday night meeting as well as the Thursday night public hearing. Do you know the purpose of the Monday night meeting?

John

John, The TIA is not online. I have it on CD and would be happy to snail mail you a copy.

Monday's meeting: as I understand it, the applicant for Park West Village has requested a special work session to discuss the project with the Planning & Zoning Board. I asked for equal time for those opposed to the project. My request was politely declined, but town staff added:

If residents have new issues or information not discussed to date that they would like to share, they should feel welcome to send them to me and Rodney Wadkins, the lead staff reviewer for the project, and we will make sure that they are included in the packet of materials sent to the PZB prior to its November meeting.

Deadline for OUR materials - tomorrow, Oct 31st.

Jackie

[Cathy]

I do not think mixed use, high-density developments are the answer we are seeking. What will adding 30,000 more cars to the problems you mentioned above do to quality of life?


That high density development is actually quite out of character with what Cary originally was. It was something foisted on us by Mayor Lang and his allies on the Council. Including Harold Weinbrecht. If Harold is honest and serious with us he will start by pushing to reform/repeal Lang's high density overlays and planning ordinances.

I won't be holding my breath.

I agree 100%!

I have tried to point this fact out to the Cary Council before.

I'm hoping to see Harold take this kind of direction also.
Repeal the "overlay district" ordinance.

Cathy

[StanN]

I have seen post after post based on the premise that Cary can control growth. I doubt that Cary can have a material, long term effect on growth.

Growth is driven by the availability of jobs and the quality of life plus demographic and macro-economic trends. Few if any would suggest we attempt to stop job formation or deliberately under-cut QOL in order to slow growth, (The latter is the track we are on.)

The population in the US and NC is growing older. In addition there is a mass migration from the old urban centers in the NE. More and more seniors are staying active, e.g. going back to school. So why should it be surprising they show-up in Cary. And if they want to live in a denser housing pattern with stores and services nearby - isn't that their choice to make. If you want to see a disaster, have government dictate housing choices.

Others might prefer traditional developments with single family homes. Thats their right too. If mixed use, high-density developments weren't preferred by a significant segment of the public - developers would stop building them.

But what I am hearing is that a bunch of cranky libertarians want to dictate what is built. I always thought you guys wanted minimum government involvement and were the big defenders of property rights.

Those "30,000 more cars" are coming whether anyone likes it or not. Building new subdivisions fills the need, it doesn't attract them here. If Cary had a moratorium tomorrow the new comers would simply move across the street to Apex, Raleigh, Morrisville, Holly Springs, etc. The traffic would be as bad and likely worse. The schools would be just as overcrowded.

Gripes about being shut out of the democratic process are legitimate. Excessive development industry influence on housing pattern decisions is a rallying point for all. Unhappiness about growing traffic congestion is an issue all can support.

The "Davis and High House" movement is welcome. But where are the solutions? What is the plan? Where is the strategy? If the members of that movement want to follow through, they cant just toss the issue into the laps of the new town council and expect them to solve whatever their issue is...especially when the problem can't be solved within Cary's borders.

StanN

[Icorpse]

The solution is very simple...you get into your car and drive for 12 minutes to go to Brier Creek, which has all the shops that the Park West promoters are planning to duplicate. If you would rather stay in Cary, then go to Crossroads or Kildaire and you would see the same shops.

I believe that right now the apartment vacancy rate is around 30% in Morrisville and Cary. So, I am not buying into the whole "we need more apartments for newcomers" theory either.

[Jackie]

Those "30,000 more cars" are coming whether anyone likes it or not.

There will be (conservatively) 35,000 daily car movements attributed just to Park West, 20,000 or so of them not captured as pass-by or internal traffic. When the property was being tooled up by Andrx, 400 employees were anticipated. If every employee had brought their lunch and never went to the dentist, that's 800 daily car trips, Monday - Friday. If every one of those 400 employees had gone out to lunch and to the dentist every day, that's still only 2400 trips, M-F.

Jackie

[Wuptdo]

Icorpse wrote:

The solution is very simple...you get into your car and drive for 12 minutes to go to Brier Creek, which has all the shops that the Park West promoters are planning to duplicate. If you would rather stay in Cary, then go to Crossroads or Kildaire and you would see the same shops.

Raises hand, "I do, but it is only 9 miles for me, and about 12 miles to that large mall in Durham."


I believe that right now the apartment vacancy rate is around 30% in Morrisville and Cary. So, I am not buying into the whole "we need more apartments for newcomers" theory either.

I drive my TreeBurn Apartmens on Church Street in Morrisville, daily. They have a sign posted with the number of bedrooms and monthly rental rates. Last time I noticed it was a two bedroom for $745. When they don't have the rates posted, it means they are full. Please note, TreeBurn is on the low-end of the apartment market. They are currently building more "upscale" apartments at the Aboretrum, so I will be real curious to see how those fill up when completed. If you look over at Durham, all sorts of apartments that have been or currently being built as well.

Wuptdo B-)

[johnshaw]

I believe that right now the apartment vacancy rate is around 30% in Morrisville and Cary. So, I am not buying into the whole "we need more apartments for newcomers" theory either.

Before I moved here I was living elsewhere but frequently working in the area. (Wake County is home, so I tried to find reasons to travel here on business). Since I don't like hotel rooms for long stays I always tried to find an apartment. I never had any trouble finding an apartment in Cary. This included time before, during, and after Langs term as mayor. It included good economic times and bad economic times. The apartment complexes were always competing for business.

When looking for apartments I always ran across many houses, condos, and townhouses for sale.

I other areas of the country I did not find the availability of apartments that I did here.

[StanN]

The market for XXXXs will correct itself. Government has no place in trying to correct it. If they do, the will foul it up....sn

[Rich]

The population in the US and NC is growing older. In addition there is a mass migration from the old urban centers in the NE. More and more seniors are staying active, e.g. going back to school. So why should it be surprising they show-up in Cary.
StanNAgain, provide data. What percent of new residents fit this profile? What percent of existing residents are looking to change to this housing style?

You've got nothing but conjecture to back up something your support for reasons far removed from customer demand.
The market for XXXXs will correct itself. Government has no place in trying to correct it. If they do, the will foul it up....snCan I quote you on this when you talk about mass transit?

[ncmitchells]

Seems to me we should make the recommended intersection improvements and not add the extra 20,000 or (or 34,000) car trips expected from Park West.

Jackie

I'm not sure a town the size of Town of Morrisville is financially ready to start improving every NCDOT intersection with a poor level of service? I understand there is Bond Money for the one intersection next to the Fire Station, but to do more would likely cause a tax increase, and probably a whopper of one. Passing some of the cost onto private developers is a pretty common way to get road improvements. Traffic is going to get worse, seems to me the issue is how to get NC54 widened all the way to 540. How far does NC54 get widened should Park West get approved and how fast can they developers build it OR do you think the NCDOT will actually realize that improving roads that feed the RTP - the premier dollar generator in the State - is good for business.

[johnshaw]

Certainly the Town of Morrisville cannot be expected to finance the needed improvements to the NC54/Cary Parkway, or the needed widening of NC54 through their own tax money. I could not find any program for those improvements in the NCDOT Transportation Improvement Plan (TIP). The just released changes to the TIP (http://ncdot.org/planning/development/TIP/TIP/Trans/pdf/div5changes.pdf) do not mention any projects in the area.

Unless the Park West developers are planning to pay for these improvements themselves, I do not see how the project can be approved. (Even with the improvements, I do not see a justification for the project). This is a case where developers are asking the local government to change the existing regulations for a project that is not needed and will significantly harm the quality of life of the area residents.

This is an application that should simply be denied.

[JoeCiulla]

It is unfortunate that there are no more scheduled debates for Morrisville candidates. The defining question I would like them all to answer is "Would you vote for Park West?" I live in Cary, but this Morrisville development can kill us as bad as DHH.

[StanN]

John,

I'll assume that the developers would be willing to widen 54 near their development. But that doesn't solve the problem. Widening one small section of the road will not relieve the congestion on 10 miles or so of congestion.

Even if 54 were on the TIP it would not solve the problem for many years. Often road improvements on the TIP are there for 10-15 years before they attract enough votes from the TAC (the mayor's +the BOC) to get to be top priority and then funded by the state. If you add up all the TIPs across the state you get $64B as I understand it.

Note that if the parcel is zoned to allow a retail mall - the powers of the Town of Morrisville are limited. Rezonings are one thing, but if the developer complies with the existing zoning regulation Morrisville can't stop him without coming out on the wrong side of a law suit. However, if the developer needs a rezoning, he can be denied.

That leaves the state legislature or an APFO. The NCGA could give local governments additional powers for transfer taxes or impact fees. Finally the towns could cooperate in a county wide APFO that would give the muni's the right to collect an impact fee dedicated to improving the road.

Note that financing road improvements is connected to the coming referendums on the TT for counties. If many of them pass, there would be a chance of going back to the NCGA for additional TTs for the muni's.... and vice versa.

Either one of those options are going to require a great deal of grassroots effort. But most of the grassroots passion seems to be in individual neighborhoods like High House & Davis. They did a great job, but in the larger scheme of things a neighborhood by neighborhood approach looks to me like a losing proposition.

What do you think? Do you see any other options?.

StanN

[johnb]

Certainly the Town of Morrisville cannot be expected to finance the needed improvements to the NC54/Cary Parkway, or the needed widening of NC54 through their own tax money.

This is where Morrisville City Hall jumps the shark.

If that city council will make that argument- I'm not saying they're wrong- but if that is their argument, what business have they of considering any more developments on or near 54?

[DarylB]

Certainly the Town of Morrisville cannot be expected to finance the needed improvements to the NC54/Cary Parkway, or the needed widening of NC54 through their own tax money.

This is where Morrisville City Hall jumps the shark.

If that city council will make that argument- I'm not saying they're wrong- but if that is their argument, what business have they of considering any more developments on or near 54?

I think we have a BINGO!!!!

[johnshaw]

Stan,

Note that if the parcel is zoned to allow a retail mall - the powers of the Town of Morrisville are limited. Rezonings are one thing, but if the developer complies with the existing zoning regulation Morrisville can't stop him without coming out on the wrong side of a law suit. However, if the developer needs a rezoning, he can be denied.The property is not currently zoned for retail. The developer is asking for a rezoning from Industrial Management to Mixed Use.



Even if 54 were on the TIP it would not solve the problem for many years. Often road improvements on the TIP are there for 10-15 years before they attract enough votes from the TAC (the mayor's +the BOC) to get to be top priority and then funded by the state. If you add up all the TIPs across the state you get $64B as I understand it.NC 54 needs improvement, both at this location and throughout the Morrisville area. At present, in the evening commute the road backs up from intersection to intersection. As you point out, even if the work was on the TIP it will be a long time coming.

But road improvements have their own consequences. Adding more lanes will move traffic more smoothly, particularly through intersections. However, it will make it more difficult for pedestrians, kids on bikes, and parents walking with kids, to cross. Additional lanes make left turns much more difficult. In many areas the changes that improved the traffic for those driving through made it impossible for residents to make a left turn out of their driveways or even their subdivisions.

Another problem with this project is that it will require an additional intersection with a signal light only about 400 ft. from the existing NC54/Cary Parkway intersection. This will increase the time for the traffic on NC54.


What do you think? Do you see any other options?.I see one clear option: deny the application.

[johnb]

NC 54 needs improvement, both at this location and throughout the Morrisville area. At present, in the evening commute the road backs up from intersection to intersection. As you point out, even if the work was on the TIP it will be a long time coming.

I once, half jokingly, suggested we could get it widened from Maynard Rd to Chapel Hill if the owner donated that empty plot at the intersection on Aviation and 54 to Marc Basnight. It would be a 4-6 lane divided road with a landscaped median faster than it takes for his restraunt in Manteo to burn down.


But road improvements have their own consequences. Adding more lanes will move traffic more smoothly, particularly through intersections. However, it will make it more difficult for pedestrians, kids on bikes, and parents walking with kids, to cross.

I drive that road daily and once in a blue moon do I see anyone walking, riding a bike, or otherwise moving with or crossing traffic. Pedestrians stay away from 54 as is.

Before this project gets built Cary and Morrisville should push Evans Road through to Airport Blvd to provide an alternate to I-40.

[d4vendel]

NC 54 needs improvement, both at this location and throughout the Morrisville area. At present, in the evening commute the road backs up from intersection to intersection. As you point out, even if the work was on the TIP it will be a long time coming.

I once, half jokingly, suggested we could get it widened from Maynard Rd to Chapel Hill if the owner donated that empty plot at the intersection on Aviation and 54 to Marc Basnight. It would be a 4-6 lane divided road with a landscaped median faster than it takes for his restraunt in Manteo to burn down.


But road improvements have their own consequences. Adding more lanes will move traffic more smoothly, particularly through intersections. However, it will make it more difficult for pedestrians, kids on bikes, and parents walking with kids, to cross.

I drive that road daily and once in a blue moon do I see anyone walking, riding a bike, or otherwise moving with or crossing traffic. Pedestrians stay away from 54 as is.

Before this project gets built Cary and Morrisville should push Evans Road through to Airport Blvd to provide an alternate to I-40.

Amen on pushing Evans Road through to Airport Blvd. Aviation is a nightmare every afternoon when coming home from the Park. I can't imagine what it would be like with an additional high-traffic draw in the area.

I see the occasional "serious cyclist" on 54. ($1000 bike, all of the clothes, etc.) Can't recall the last time I saw a pedestrian anywhere from Maynard in Cary to Miami Blvd in Durham on 54.

[johnshaw]

It is unfortunate that there are no more scheduled debates for Morrisville candidates. The defining question I would like them all to answer is "Would you vote for Park West?" I live in Cary, but this Morrisville development can kill us as bad as DHH.

Joe,
I hope you can attend two meetings next week:
Monday, 11/5, 6:30pm, the developers will make a presentation to the P&Z board,

Thursday, 11/8, 6pm, there will be another hearing for members of the public who did not comment at the first meeting. The board will vote on the rezoning after the public comments.

Meetings take place at Morrisville Town Hall, 100 Town Hall Drive, though the primary driveway is off of Morrisville-Carpenter Rd. Overflow parking, if needed, is available at the Chamber of Commerce bldg on Town Hall Dr just past the police station.

I plan to attend both.
John

[johnshaw]

I drive that road daily and once in a blue moon do I see anyone walking, riding a bike, or otherwise moving with or crossing traffic. Pedestrians stay away from 54 as is.

I think that NC54 should be widened to four lanes from the existing four lane part in Durham County to at least Cary Parkway or beyond.

My comment about pedestrians don't apply as much to that road; I see very few. However, I do want to point out that, in general, adding lanes to a road may improve traffic flow on that road but can, in some cases, have serious consequences that must be considered. Road widening is not always an easy answer to traffic problems.

[StanN]

The developer seems to be saying: I'll widen my small piece of road, add a huge amount of additional traffic and the service level will go up!!

How does that make any sense? Who paid for the traffic study? Morrisville or the developer?

StanN

[Brent]

The developer seems to be saying: I'll widen my small piece of road, add a huge amount of additional traffic and the service level will go up!!

How does that make any sense? Who paid for the traffic study? Morrisville or the developer?

StanN

It is indeed inane. And about as sensitive as their bragging about having a nice pretty piece of "water art" when they're adding more development that will use more water that will impose even more stringent water restrictions on everyone.

Bottom line is that the infrastructure is not in place to support a development of this scale, the infrastructure won't even be in place after it's built, and the developer has professed no apparent interest in assisting with bulking up the infrastructure. And why should they? The developer, apparently, expects approval without having to do anything extra. So why should the developer do anything extra?
In other words, same old story.

And that story line won't change unless adult supervision appears at Morrisvilee Town Hall, and that relies on the upcoming election.

[Jackie]

The developer seems to be saying: I'll widen my small piece of road, add a huge amount of additional traffic and the service level will go up!!

Yes, that's exactly what they are saying.


How does that make any sense? Who paid for the traffic study? Morrisville or the developer?

StanN

The developer.

Cary staff has questioned some of the existing levels of service used in the TIA, especially at NC54/Cary Pkwy, NC54/Morrisville Pkwy and Evans/Cary Pkwy.

Jackie

[Wuptdo]

Jackie -- Down at Morrisville Town Hall, who is the biggest supporter of the development community amongst the elected officials?

Also, can we bring in signs into Town Hall with wooded stakes attached to them. For some strange reason, the TOC has a real problem when the masses come to Town Hall with wooden stakes (to hold signs up). :roll: :roll: :wink:

Fight the Power!

Wuptdo B-)

[Jackie]

Jackie -- Down at Morrisville Town Hall, who is the biggest supporter of the development community amongst the elected officials?

Also, can we bring in signs into Town Hall with wooded stakes attached to them. For some strange reason, the TOC has a real problem when the masses come to Town Hall with wooden stakes (to hold signs up). :roll: :roll: :wink:

Fight the Power!

Wuptdo B-)

Hi Wuptdo,

Yes, free speech is alllowed at town hall.

I'm not sure I can answer your question about general support of the development community with absolute certainty. But here's my take on Park West support and I'll try not to ramble:

Last March, the developer asked the town staff to informally poll Morrisville board members on support (or lack thereof) for an unknown development at an undisclosed location. Staff said, "I intend to keep the location from you." My initial response - sure. I'm interested.

As more details were offered, the board was told the project would be comparable to North Hills mall, situated at the corner of NC54 & Cary Pkwy. Based on this info, three board members said they would not likely support such a project. They were: Holcombe, Lyons and Martin. There were also three thumbs up and one undecided. I don't know who the yes/maybe votes were. Some board members responded via telephone so there's no paper trail.

Based on the 3-3-1 poll results (not a vote mind you, because that would be illegal :wink: ), Morrisville Partners decided NOT to purchase the property. I was replaced by Hill Carrow in early December of 2006. I'm assuming the 3-3-1 non-vote changed to 4-2-1, but I don't know that for a fact. Morrisville Partners closed on the property on Dec 29, 2006.

Johnson, Faulkner, Murry and Snyder voted yes to the WalMart at 540 and 54. Of those 4, 3 gave a preliminary thumbs up to the Park West project. I'm not certain which 3. And that's the very vague, long winded and unsatisfying answer to your question. At least one of those 4 makes decisions based on logic, factual information and public opinion.

Our election is next week. Richard Elliott is a write in candidate opposing Liz Johnson.

Also next week:

11/5/07 6:30 special called meeting of the PZB to discuss Park West with the developer
11/8/07 6:00 PZB meeting with public comments; vote on Park West

Jackie

[Wuptdo]

Jackie - thank you for you insight on this matter. With so many moving targets (schools, developments, politicians, roads, taxes, bonds, elections, local MSM) in Western Wake, it is hard to keep up. I find it best to pick a target or two, and focus on that, but help on others, when their is time.

What I sort of find ironic about this new development, is the fact that another pharmaceutical company is building a new pill plant down in Holly Springs. What was wrong with this plant? It was certainly cheap at $25 million dollars (??).

I tired of the "man" keeping us down, while he lines his pockets with gold.

Wuptdo B-)

[Jackie]

I once, half jokingly, suggested we could get it widened from Maynard Rd to Chapel Hill if the owner donated that empty plot at the intersection on Aviation and 54 to Marc Basnight.

If only. After a lawsuit, it's been approved as a gas station. The site plan was initially denied, but it fit the zoning, so a gas station it will be Right in/right out on both NC 54 and Aviation Pkwy.

Jackie

[johnshaw]

Jackie,

Am I correct in assuming that (regarding the level of service (LOS) analysis of the intersections near Park West):
1. There is no commitment by the developer, NCDOT, or anyone that the "recommended improvements" will actually be in place by the 2010 build-out of the project, and
2. There is no analysis of the LOS of those intersections with the build-out but without the "recommended improvements?

John

[Jackie]

Jackie,

Am I correct in assuming that (regarding the level of service (LOS) analysis of the intersections near Park West):
1. There is no commitment by the developer, NCDOT, or anyone that the "recommended improvements" will actually be in place by the 2010 build-out of the project, and
2. There is no analysis of the LOS of those intersections with the build-out but without the "recommended improvements?

John

Usually, if traffic improvements are recommended, site plan approval is conditional based on completion of improvements. The town can withhold certificates of occupancy if the improvements are not completed.

No, there's no analysis of traffic with Park West traffic but without the improvements.

Jackie

[Jackie]

How far does NC54 get widened should Park West get approved and how fast can they developers build it OR do you think the NCDOT will actually realize that improving roads that feed the RTP - the premier dollar generator in the State - is good for business.

NC 54 developer funded improvements will extend from Cary Pkwy to Morrisville Pkwy. The developer quotes 4 lanes from Cary Pkwy all the way to Weston Pkwy, but I think that's taking credit for existing asphalt between Morrisville Pkwy and Weston Pkwy. I'll drive it later today and correct if I'm wrong.

Do I think NCDOT is going to do anything about NC 54 in Morrisville? No. I hope I'm wrong. But it didn't make the 2009-2015 MTIP. The Evans Rd extension is currently #30. It was 25.

Jackie

[StanN]

How far does NC54 get widened should Park West get approved and how fast can they developers build it OR do you think the NCDOT will actually realize that improving roads that feed the RTP - the premier dollar generator in the State - is good for business.....snip

Do I think NCDOT is going to do anything about NC 54 in Morrisville? No. I hope I'm wrong. But it didn't make the 2009-2015 MTIP. The Evans Rd extension is currently #30. It was 25.

Jackie

The way the TIP selection process works is that the staff (CAMPO) recommends the roads to be improved. The Technical Advisory Committee (TAC) comprised of mayors + a delegate from the Wake BOC take a weighted vote based on their population. Morissville by itself has very litle weight in this vote. Morissville and Cary combined do not have the necessary 50%. In contrast, if Raleigh and Cary agree, the game is over. All the delegates to the TAC are aware that nothing gets funded unless it is near the top of the list.

Are Raleigh's needs on Capital Blvd any less than Morissville's on 54?

BTW, the planning process does not include Durham or Chapel Hill. Planning for RTP id divided with the Durham side in one MPO and the Wake side in another. Sheer Brilliance.!!

One example of what goes on: Holly Springs got the rt. 55 bypass around their town bumped up in priority by agreeing to a regional landfill everyone wanted..but not in their backyards. After the road was approved, the next HS TC denounced the decision by the previous TC and pandered for votes by being against the landfill.

The underlying problem is a lack of state funds for the TIP. Even if the agreement to stop transferring funds from the Highway Trust Fund to the General Fund was eliminated, it would only be enough for about 20 miles of major road improvements per year for the entire state...and some other state supported function like schools, colleges, hospitals would have to adsorb the cut.

StanN

[StanN]

Or we could make all the lanes six feet wide and squeeze in another lane onto existing roads... :D

StanN

[DarylB]

Just a question, but why do they call this a "trust" fund?

[Jackie]

Monday, 11/5, 6:30pm, the developers will make a presentation to the P&Z board,

Time/Venue change on this one. It's now:

Monday, 11/5 6:00PM
Morrisville Chamber of Commerce
260 Town Hall Dr
Ste A

Jackie