Cary's financial health

[StanN]

Fact without comment.

May 15, 2003
Cary bonds receive 'AAA' rating from Fitch
Fitch Ratings has assigned a 'AAA' rating to the Town of Cary's $41.1 million general obligation public improvement bonds, Series 2003.

The bonds are scheduled to sell competitively on May 20, 2003 and mature June 1, 2004-2022. Fitch also affirms the 'AAA' rating on the city's $27 million in outstanding general obligation bonds.

The 'AAA' rating reflects the town's exceptionally strong financial position, increasing tax base, and growing economy, Fitch says. Debt levels are low and should remain affordable through the life of the 10-year capital improvement plan.

stan

[Brent]

Comment on the fact:

Wow, things sure have drastically improved since last fall, when the Town was in dire financial straits (with a flat tax base and economy and an outlandish debt level), according to some stuff I received in the mail then. :roll:

Or has Cary's financial health been vigorous all along?

[Cathy]

Tischler & Associates, Inc.

Providing Solutions for Growth

4701 Sangamore Road • Suite N210 • Bethesda, MD 20816

Also: Pasadena, CA

www.tischlerassociates.com

Infrastructure Considerations and Growth Management

"There are many questions that should be asked and answered as communities consider growth management policies.
One of these is the provision of infrastructure and differential costs by service area.

In this newsletter, three assignments are discussed reflecting different issues and perspectives concerning infrastructure needs/costs as they relate togrowth.

Two articles indicate how impact fees can create locational incentives.

As part of a growth management planning process, Cary, North Carolina hired TA to evaluate the fiscal impact of different development alternatives. Among the alternatives were several that assumed a greater mix of office and business park development.
One of the interesting findings is that the increased infrastructure needs/costs outweigh the revenues generated."

http://www.tischlerassociates.com/news/Newsletter43.pdf

[StanN]

Cathy,

Let me put aside my problems with Tischler's methodology and assumptions and assume they are 100% correctd.

As you know from my postings I am ususally a green eye shades type and want to see everything cost justified. But not in this case. If you followed Tischlers conclusions to the letter Cary would be like Beverly Hills - all high priced residential and little else. But that is not my vision and I hope it isn't the TOC's...or yours.

Rather I propose that an essential ingredient for a high QOL is a job or business that uses ones skills and capabilities. And that job ought not to be one that requires a bumper to bumper crawl through traffic twice a day - or requires leaving home at 6:30 AM to avoid the traffic. And that traffic is going to get worse as time progresses (despite the rail system).

Further Tischler does not look into the true cost of transporting all those people to Durham and RTP. It just looks at Cary's costs and obliquely assumes that Cary will continue to provide the necessary transportation infrastructure. And we know that is not true. And Tischler does not begin to open the can of worms as to the environmental costs or the individual costs of the personal car. Now you and I may debate the calculation of those costs but I hope we could agree that they are not zero - as Tischler does. Nor does Tischler consider the need for all those well-to-do folks in their high priced homes to provide a transportation infrastructure for all the lower income folks providing services to them. Nor does Tischler consider a single element of cost outside of Cary - such as the County's cost for schools or the states cost for universities and community colleges.

It is a Cary-centric analysis as though the rest of the world doesn't exist. Whats true for Cary may be true for other well to do communities. Tischlers conclusions suggest they all ought to wall themselves like gated communities for the rich. Cary would be a sad place to live if we followed Tischler to its logical end.

Consider who commissioned the report and what he wanted to prove. The choice of consultants to prove a predetermined point is a subtle way of influencing opinions and votes. And consultants understand what their clients want - and are likely to deliver a report that pleases them.

As for me, Tischler ought to be read and understood - but it is only one of many inputs and considerations.

stan

[Brent]

As part of a growth management planning process, Cary, North Carolina hired TA to evaluate the fiscal impact of different development alternatives. Among the alternatives were several that assumed a greater mix of office and business park development.
One of the interesting findings is that the increased infrastructure needs/costs outweigh the revenues generated."

http://www.tischlerassociates.com/news/Newsletter43.pdf

WHAT?!? How can this be? Chris Sinclair has ASSURED us that growth always pay for itself. Yet Cary hired Tischler and they found otherwise.

Indeed, they found that Cary should INCREASE its impact fees (but wait, our Council just finished decreasing them, didn't they?).

Now that Cary has paid bucks for a consultant, it will be interesting to see if they heed the consultant's advice...

[Cathy]

Brent,

You may have missed the fact that this study was done in either 2000 or 2001 at the request of the previous Council.
It seems that they ignored the warnings presented in this study and the impact fees have never been properly structured to have the best "impact"!

Cathy

[Cathy]

Stan,

Who do you think commissioned this study?
It sounds like you are assuming that it was Ernie.
This report was referred to at least once by Harold Weinbrecht in one of his many opinion columns and I heard mention of it before Ernie was elected mayor.
The dates on the graph statistics indicate that the report was compiled back at the very beginning of Lang's tenure as mayor.
Even if the Council and Staff may have decided to ignore the report back then, I would think that since the report accurately predicted the $2 million deficit by 2004, if higher density development were pursued along with an employment slump, any intelligent person would consider taking it more seriously. Even if it did mean that the most financially sound policy for the Town was to continue to promote exactly what made the Town attractive in the first place_Single family, contained neighborhoods that employees of the surrounding job centers seem to want.

I am very surprised to hear you of all people complain that the study is "a Cary-centric analysis as though the rest of the world doesn't exist" and that Tischler's suggestions are paramount to suggesting that Cary "wall themselves off" from the rest of the area.
If I recall your attitude in other threads concerning who is subsidizing whom in the County tax vs Muni tax arguments, you seemed to like that idea.

Tischler & Assoc. also do fiscal equity studies on tax policy regarding County vs Municipal tax burdens. Perhaps Cary should commission this for this area to see who is subsidizing whom. Perhaps they already did.
A study that Tischler did for Shelby County TN showed that the County was subsidizing services to Memphis residents by two to one.
Or maybe you would prefer not to know.

Your 'auto hostility' is showing also. I'd really like to know how often you yourself walk, bike, or take the bus to run essential errands. If you are really worried about congestion, I would think that you would be arguing against all of the higher density development the Town has been promoting over the last several years.
Higher density = higher congestion,_ especially when money for roads is siphoned off for a futile attempt to promote walking, biking, and public transit for essential trips.
The solution you hint at sounds like 'social engineering' is required.

I have looked over quite a bit of literature from the company and it looks to me like in at least half of the studies done across the US, the results of the study didn't deliver the clients supposed desired answer.

Cathy

[StanN]

The study was commissioned by Glen Lang- your assumption is incorrect. The study supported his biases on going overboard on laying on heavy regulations and fees on offices and other commercial development. Glen had some good ideas but he went too far and was too left wing for me.

I'd love to do some more walking and biking but if you have no cartiledge in your knees that is difficult. Now if we had canals instead of roads I could get around by swimming.

Am I "auto-hostile"? How is it possible, I have two and am totally dependent on them. I am hostile to people who are content to pollute and use more of limited resources by driving light trucks they do not need.

Am I Cary-centric? Quite possibly - I live here by choice. I like living here. But I am also city-centric - just spent a vacation in my hometown of NYC and loved every minute of it. Even managed to walk a few blocks. Walking is so much more interesting there.

And I don't like getting ripped off by the County - let me count the ways- or by those in the County who want to perpetuate their subsidies.

Stan

[Cathy]

The study was commissioned by Glen Lang- your assumption is incorrect.
What was my assumption that is incorrect?
I asked you who you thought commissioned the report.
I stated that it was probably Lang.

Sorry to hear about your knees.
I happen to think that even without disability, most people prefer personal vehicle mobility for themselves. They just hope to force other people off the roads somehow.

I and my husband together have one vehicle each. I am driving a 1993 Mazda Protege' and have made all my vehicle purchase decisions on high MPG. He drives a new Protege'.
I have owned two Chevy Chevettes in the past because they got around 40 mpg average. The Chevette was discontinued, and I find it difficult to believe that today's vehicle's can't seem to get much more than 20 mpg or so. I simply would not buy a vehicle that would get less than this unless I HAD to for work reasons.
I believe that what has been successful has been the lower emissions that new vehicles produce. This is a major factor in the improvement of our air quality. I am all for doing sensible things to keep our environment clean.
Trying to engineer society into urban cores that force the use of heavily subsidized public transit and cause auto congestion and increased heat island effects is not sensible environmental policy to me.

How would you feel about if it you found out that the County was actually subsidizing the municipal residents needs? Would you be ready to pay more County tax?

Cathy

[Brent]

Brent,

You may have missed the fact that this study was done in either 2000 or 2001 at the request of the previous Council.
It seems that they ignored the warnings presented in this study and the impact fees have never been properly structured to have the best "impact"!

Cathy

I caught the study details, and that doesn't change the fact that the study refutes Chris's often-repeated (but still untrue) statement that development always pays for itself and recommends new and restructured impact fees, and yet our current Council reduced the fees across the board.

[Wuptdo]

Now what is that word......ah, yeah; "Political Payoff." :twisted: Remember, the needs of the few (developers & builders), outweight the needs of the many (taxpayers).

Wuptdo B-)

[StanN]

Cathy,

I can point to instances of Wake subsidizing muni's - particularly Raleigh and the eastern muni's - but not Cary. However I think those instances are outweighed by muni's subsidizing the UA. Of course when Wake subsidizes a muni - like subsidizing Raleighs future water supply, it means all the citizens in Wake including the majority in the muni's are supplying the subsidy.

I beleive each muni should pay for what it gets - no more, no less. If you can prove that Wake is subsidizing Cary I would gladly pay the extra taxes.

stan

[StanN]

Cathy,

good to hear you don't buy more of a personal car than you need. We do the same. If everyone did so we all would be better off....stan

[Cathy]

I caught the study details, and that doesn't change the fact that the study refutes Chris's often-repeated (but still untrue) statement that development always pays for itself and recommends new and restructured impact fees, and yet our current Council reduced the fees across the board.

Brent,

There is so much more to this study that everyone concerned with development and it's cost/benefit should ask to be able to review the other details of what Tischler provided to the Town back then. They may have studied impact fees and made recommendations about them that were ignored also. Perhaps they have always been too high, or poorly structured, or applied to the wrong things, or maybe not.

I hope that yo did not miss the fact that only five scenarios were shown on that graph. One missing scenario is what would have happened if the development pursued was low density along with a moderate or high employment rate.
I do recall that the Tischler report is what HW was referring to when he talked about how the Town was shown that low density single family homes valued over 250,000 DID pay for itself.
And you can't ignore the added financial tax burden that will be spread around to all of the Town's private landowners when land that is removed from the tax rolls for 'open space' is created. Open space owned by the Town does not generate tax revenue, so if everyone wants it they need to except a higher tax burden on the remaining land to subsidize this.
I'm not against preserving open space, but the cost has to be factored into everything else.

Cathy

[Cathy]

Cathy,

good to hear you don't buy more of a personal car than you need. We do the same. If everyone did so we all would be better off....stan

Thanks, I agree.
I also cut my small amount of lawn in front of my house with a un-motorized reel mower, my backyard is a riparian buffer for a creek, that I have returned to a wild state and nuture as a wildlife habitat.
I avoid treating my land with chemicals, too.
Good environmental stewardship is best accomplished by each of us individually, voluntarily.

[Wuptdo]

This is for Cathy & StanN:

http://www.smartireland.net/index.html

Saw these all over Europe. Makes sense to me if you just need a car for driving around our "City on the Hill." :wink:

Someone sent this to me and thought I might enjoy a lite read. This especially applies sense we are primarilly talking about debt and bond issues:

http://www.townofcary.org/agenda/bondres.htm

And look, it is already adopted! 8-O

Question: What is a "Brownfield" site? Is it a polite name for a hogwaste lagoon? Please advise.
Thoughts and Comments?

Wuptdo B-)

[Cathy]

Wasn't that nice of the League of Municipalities to put together those pre-written "resolutions" for all of the municipalities to just download and call them their own??
http://www.nclm.org/A1%20Center%20Page%20News/Resolution.DOC

How could the city politicians not love that Amendment One TIF? Like Mr. Ellis Hankins told them on June 9th; it's easy financing for all of their redevelopment dreams and schemes with NO VOTER APPROVAL REQUIRED!

Are the municipalities telling the League what to promote? Or is it the League telling the municpalities what to promote? Hmmmmm.....I wonder.

A 'brownfield' is urban planning speak meaning a site that was previously used for industrial or commercial, which may or may not need some environmental clean up.
Greenfield is an area that has never been previously developed.

And aren't those cars just the cutest little things you've ever seen?
If it wasn't such a scary thought that one of the popular SUV tanks running around Cary could squash one of those cars like a bug and not even notice, it might be a fun car to run around town in, but NEVER be tempted to take one on the interstate!!

Cathy

[Wuptdo]

Thanks Cathy. So can we define downtown Cary as a "Brownfield"? I have always wondered about those old gas stations downtown. Has anyone checked the ground water (or soil) for "leakage" from the gas tanks? Are they still in place? :?

Cathy, the other thing that impressed me in Rome was all the "older" people still driving "Vespa's" around town (and at high speed) as well. Is this the future of Cary?

Wuptdo B-)

[StanN]

Wuptdo,

I am not certain but I believe the Smart Car and other similar, super hi-mileage mini-cars common in Europe, do not meet federal crash and safety specifications and are illegal here. I know for a fact that the deux Cheveaux, an earleir french mini-car is illegal here.

And as you likely have seen, there are big diffeerences between driving on Europe's autobahns and autoroutes compared to US highways. The biggest difference is that cars going at slower speeds virtually always stay to the right snf the left lane is for passing by the nuts in Porshe's going 200 KM/hr. It just doesn't work that way here.

Less obvious is that cars and trucks in Europe on average get 50% higher gas mileage than the average here. Many of our cars would not be salable in Europe. Can you imagine the cost of filling up a 10MPG Hummer in Europe.

Stan

Stan.

[Don]

Thanks Cathy. So can we define downtown Cary as a "Brownfield"? I have always wondered about those old gas stations downtown. Has anyone checked the ground water (or soil) for "leakage" from the gas tanks? Are they still in place? :?

Cathy, the other thing that impressed me in Rome was all the "older" people still driving "Vespa's" around town (and at high speed) as well. Is this the future of Cary?

Wuptdo B-)

Actually Wup, the answer is NO the old tanks are not still here. I believe Gurkans was the last to be removed about 6-7 years ago.

Define downtown as you wish, I call downtown a GREENfield since the industry businesses are thriving and the O+I and retail are tanking. Looking around at the parking lots auto repair seems good downtown. Our shop had a great year last year, I wonder how Ashworth Village as a whole did? How about Chatham Square? Who isn't contributing to the "tax base" here? All you friggin wannabe yuppies in debt up to your *** driving your ENTRY LEVEL BMW sure don't like looking at us on your daily commute or stroll through downtown, but you have no problem expecting us to serve you when you need it.

Can the automotive businesses improve their appearance? YES, can the auto shops screen some parking? YES. But wheres the money gonna come from for "redevelopment" or "revitalization" if we aint here? Gonna loose ALOT of tax dollars there! Again, it takes everyone trying.

Do they make a vespa for someone as big as you?

[Cathy]

http://www.redevelopment.com/norby/ch04-ia.gif

[Wuptdo]

DonF wrote:


Do they make a vespa for someone as big as you?


No Don, they do not. However, I can probably fit my big butt into one of these. :-D

http://www.motortrike.com/

And to be a true wanabee yuppie in Cary you must own one of these (own anything else you might as well move back to the trailer park or Holly Springs :roll: ):

http://www.mercedes-commercials.co.uk/mercedes-benz-mpvs/

Don, is it so much to have a nice part of town in which one can proudly walk friends and family around. Is it asking so much to have a decent shopping area with nice shops and eating facilities (beside the mall). How about a decent roadway cutting through downtown. What I am using as the basis of my model is the village at Sun Destin, Florida; Hilton Head Island (by the lighthouse & Marina); or the Water Shopping Mall on Kuaii, Hawaii (near the Marriott Resort). And if you and your buddy, Mr. Ashworth think that his little "village" is what I am talking about, you are sadly mistaken.

Don, I know you work hard at your business, but take a break, and enjoy some of the good places in the world. :wink:

Wuptdo B-)

[Don]

LOL!! The trike is phat!

The problem is all those places have some touristic aspect - water. We have No University, No waterfront, No Skiing, No river, etc... We are a bedroom community that wants and deserves a nice environment to live and do business. What's so wrong with that?

I am proud of downtown and always meet people/do business here whenever possible.

[Don]

Cool Cartoon Cathy. I as much as anyone would love to see dollars headed downtown for example - but to aviod the citizenship is flat out wrong.

BTW, when are we getting a Winston, oops, Nextel Cup Track? That would definitely help downtown! Something like Bristol Motor Speedway.........

[Wuptdo]

DonF wrote:


We have No University, No waterfront, No Skiing, No river, etc...

Don, you hit the nail on the head - bullseye! Wup begins to brainstorm Ok, first we convince Mr. Goodnight to covert Cary Academy into "Goodnight or Cary Institute of Technology and add a few more buildings (including dorms). Now we have a college (and now college student workforce as well). Now we get the Federal Government (Corp of Engineers) involved and build the large stormwater "Canals" with a concrete river running all the way to Jorden Lake. Some lowlands may be flooded along the way, but we can use these for marina's and people wanting to live on houseboats. We may also require a "lock or two", but we want to have boat traffic to and fro Jorden Lake with an additional concrete river running into RTP.
Now there will be some "displaced" business during construction, but they will have first choice of the new "waterfront" commcerical lots. Along the waterfront they will build small buildings with retail on the main level with residential above. Also, there will be many "trendy" large townhomes and apartments also built along the "waterfront". Owners of these properties would all have dock access. Franz Automative would become Franz Marine & Automative :wink: (Like Venice, Italy or Alexandria, VA). C-Tram would also now have fixed route water taxi's. the dream fades away. Oh well, one could always dream.

Wuptdo B-)

[Cathy]

You're a trip Wuptdo.