Downtown Cutltural Arts Center?

[Brent]

Jack Smith gave a talk to the Chamber yesterday about downtown revitalization, specifically with respect to cultural arts (this wasn't a "Town Council" presentation).

Among the points that Jack made:

- He referred to the "downtown myths" posted elsewhere in this forum. He specifically referred to the one about "non-traditional anchors", meaning that downtown "anchors" are much less likely today to be things like department stores

- He described a vision in which a cultural arts center acts as an anchor, or "magnet", to a "destination downtown".

- The cultural arts center could be this magnet, could spur other development (restaurants, shops, etc.) and could complement the planned "destination park".

- The cultural arts center could also serve to help tie together the many cultural arts groups and initiatives ALREADY in place in Cary (there are dozens of groups already in place) -- this doesn't need to be something that is built to "attract" artists, and it need not depend on "drawing the national events", which is the model used for USA Baseball, Tennis Center, aquatics palace, etc.

- The effort, if pursued, ought to be led by the private sector and facilitated by the public sector. Jack was not at all suggesting that the Town ought to build such a facility.

- The vision for the center might include theater facilities for the performing arts (perhaps a "large" (1000+?) and a "small" (200?) theater, areas for classes, arts & crafts, etc.; galleries for visual arts, etc., etc.

- Such a cultural arts center would offer another venue that is local to Cary, where groups wouldn't have to go to Raleigh or Duharm to find appropriate facilities. Jack even noted that we have a hard time finding a place to hold high school graduations for Cary schools in Cary.

- Examples of other places where something like this has been tried and been successful were presented.

I think this is a good idea worth pursuing, at least in the way it was presented by Jack. I especially like the idea of the cultural arts center being something that many locals would take advantage of, and not being a publicly funded entity. Something like this might actually make downtown a "destination" for me from time to time (just some trendy shops and restaurants probably wouldn't, for me).

I think something like this could work.

What do other folks here think?

[johnb]

Jack is fooling himself and you are joining him in his delusion.

This is the same type of nonsense the public hears, and falls for, everytime a baseball team owner demands a new stadium. Such government funded facilities (sports venues, "performing arts centers") do not pay for themselves. Does the example of Regency Park not suggest anything to Jack and those that buy his far from 20/20 "vision."

The high schools could do their graduations at Regency if they wanted, if the city would allow them to that is. That's just a government boondoggle in search of a justification to waste money.

[StanN]

Brent,

If the Chatham St. business area is going to be "revitalized" (I do not believe this is uniquely Cary's "downtown" - a good case could be made for Walnut St. which does many times more volume in retail trade) a theatrical arts center is the only thing I can think of that would draw people to the area.

However, from a purely business viwpoint it is a dicey proposition with several other venues within a 30-40 minute drive. E.g. the BTI center in Raleigh is only 20 minutes from my home and is a national class center with four theaters. Further consider that a lot of private money went into the construction of that center and that it is subsidized by Raleigh, Wake and NC. Performing arts are not typically financially self-sufficient with ticket sales accounting for only ~50-60% of the costs. However, I agree it would have a positive effect on the towns ratables and overall economic activity.

I doubt it could be pulled off as a free-enterprise venture and would need BIG sugar daddys and TOC participation. Some private organization such as the Heart of Cary Assoc. would have to do a lot of planning and orginization to pull this off. The TOC has so many other things on its plate that are revenue drainers and so many other opportunities that I doubt this is a #1 priority. I like the concept but it is a question of prioritities in my mind.

Perhaps the citizens of Cary should be polled as to the ranking of such an effort versus the alternatives.

stan

[Wuptdo]

Brent - it is amazing when great minds think alike. :D

I have been thinking for several days about what Cary needs for a "hook." I quess the PC term is "destination center." When visiting the Cathedral in Salisbury, UK (biggest spine in Europe) last week I found out something very interesting. Though the idea was to build a cathedral for the Bishop and the people, but the people who financed the church were thinking about all the "pilgrams" that would also come visit the cathedral (build it, and they will come). The same could be applied to the Temple at Dellos, the Pathogon in Rome, or the "Big Eye" in London.

However, "Big Brother" has decided that a downtown Raleigh Conventation Center is the "hook" that we all benefit by ($200 million and no vote :cry: ). Also, Durham is looking a building a large downtown theater as well. I digress.

Do we dare compete with Raleigh on such a matters. We all know that the county commishes will sell us out in a heartbeat to keep Raleigh happy. Remember, Raleigh is trying to get "us" (all the people of Wake County) to visit them (and spend money).

However, I have several ideas, of which most are politically incorrect. :roll: But the one idea that keeps coming to the surface is not just an aquatics center, but a full-blown "Dinsey" type water park. But build it under a dome so it can be used year-round. :) Another idea is to have the local Baptist get togather and build a Baptist Cathedral or a massive statue of one of their icon's. (Like the Jesus down in Brazil). (Special Note: I understand the largest Hindu Temple on the East Coast is being built off of Hwy. 54).

Keep in mind, if they want to build this downtown, they must address the inferstructure needs first (roads, traffic, parking, and trains). Also, I want to know what they plan to do with the old "Cary Elementary" building first. I have other ideas as well, but I want to see what others think as well.

Wuptdo B-)

[johnb]

The Cary Elementary building should have been torn down and the Kildaire Farm - Walnut - Academy - Harrison interchange there should have been cleaned up.

Instead we now have a brick dump the city is going to sink money into for no purpose other than to make certain council critters and their special interest allies feel good about themselves.

Transportation, specifically the ease of it, is the critical factor in drawing business to downtown Cary, if that is what is desired. Mass transit is a foolish idea, four train stations are already being cancelled to "save money" (which is logical, just that by cancelling all we could save even more money).

Why does getting elected to public office seem to block critical thinking?

There is no "arts" venue that is worth the expense in downtown Cary. None. If there was the private sector would have found a way to capitalize on it. If it has to be done by government that is usually a pretty good indication it's a money looser and wouldn't draw a crowd without government coercion involved.

[StanN]

Wuptdo,

Now if we could resurrect the Carawee indians we could have a casino downtown...wouldn't that be a draw.

Incidentally, Baptists don't build cathedrals. If you call the building on the Duke campus that they will politely remind you it is a chapel. Cathedrals are for Catholics and perhaps Anglicans. Now, if you want to try something out of the ordinary - how about a wailing wall.

Also, to give you some further heartburn, the Raleigh Convention Center will cost $730 million over 30 years including the forecast annual subsidy and the interest on the loan. $200 M is for openers. Them's the official figures presented to the Wake County Commissioners and the Raleigh City Council when they jointly approved this rip-off. Oh well, maybe the swim teams can get free passes to the swimming pool on top of the attached luxury hotel our Cary tax dollars are helping to subsidize. Just keep saying "Wake County is a great place to live" -particularly if you own land or a restaurant in downtown Raleigh.

stan

stan

[johnb]

Stan,

Let's cross pollinate your ideas.

Let's build an Indian casino in an Aztec pyramid. Play the slots and if you loose we sacrifice you to the gods of low monthly payments and high interest credit cards on the top of the building.

Everybody wins.

We could call it performance art to make the city council happy.

[johnb]

By the way, Duke ain't a Baptist school. The Chapel on campus is Methodist.

I don't believe either group condones gambling or human sacrifice though.

[Wuptdo]

Stan wrote:


Incidentally, Baptists don't build cathedrals

Stan, that is exactly the point. If the Baptist build a cathedral in Cary, it would be their national headquarters. It would attract their pilgrams from around the world. Cary would then become like Rome, London and Mecca, a moral centerpoint of the Baptist world. (I can almost hear the screams from Chapel Hill now :grin: ).

However, JohnB's idea with the temple and casino has many merits as well. :wink: (Will someone call Donald Trump?)

Another idea is "legalize" horse racing only in Cary and build the State's only legal horse racing facility. :D

Wuptdo B-)

[Brent]

Such government funded facilities ...

John,

This must be one of your "automatically generated responses". :lol:

When you go back and read what I posted, you'll see that what Jack proposed (and I think I am representing this correctly) was NOT by any means a "government funded" center. He explicitly stated that this needed to be led by the private sector, at least in the vision he presented.

That is a chief reason why I think it is a good vision that merits further serious discussion.

[Brent]

The Cary Elementary building should have been torn down and the Kildaire Farm - Walnut - Academy - Harrison interchange there should have been cleaned up.

Sorry, even though I agree that transportation is a key enabler for any sort of "revitalization", I cringe at the thought of tearing down a historic landmark. Yes, historic preservation has costs, but it also has great value.

[johnb]

Right Brent. So rather than fund these utopian visions via broad based tax we'll implement zoning restrictions that impose the costs on a small group of property owners as the stick then for the carrot instead of handing out a wad of cash grant some concessions on taxes, zoning, et al, not granted to other property owners to "incentivize" the new property owner to do what we want.

That way we can maintain the fiction that it isn't "goernment funded". If a government bureaucrat or politician is behind the curtain government money is being expended. A direct handout is not the only form of abuse the public treasury is subjected to. The "Global Transpark" fiasco should have been quite sufficient in revealing the limitations government action to start/maintain economic growth and in the devious ways politicians will tap the treasury and hide the expenditures.

[Brent]

Right Brent. So rather than fund these utopian visions via broad based tax we'll implement zoning restrictions that impose the costs on a small group of property owners ...

Zoning restrictions? The entire Town Center area is zoned "Town Center". Zoning wouldn't be a problem ifs some private-sector people wanted to pursue this idea. And I hope they do.

The comparison to the Global TransPark (which I agree is a ridiculous boondoggle) is absurd.

I would not object if a private-sector-led cultural arts center were pursued for downtown Cary, and I wouldn't object if the Town did provide some incentives for its development. And I'll bet that neighboring property owners of such a center, if built, wouldn't mind, either.

I'm not talking about (and from what I heard, Jack Smith is not talking about) a government-funded center, or amortizing or condemning property for such a center, or anything of the sort. I wouldn't want something like that. I do think that it's worthwhile to further discuss the potential of such a center as a downtown "magnet". It wouldn't be a silver bullet, and it wouldn't necessarily be an easy thing to do, but it could be a valuable thing to do.

[StanN]

Brent,

I must be sick in the head...but I have to agree with John again. Suppose Jack's suggestion was what the Chamber and the Heart of Cary folks wanted to hear. Suppose they come back and say "we will do the arts center with private finacing" but need some TIP's from Cary. After all, Cary's cost of interst is far lower than ours and Cary's full faith and credit is not needed to guarantee those bonds (unless they default). Or perhaps they will say - what we need from Cary is a parking garage - or improved roads or we will put up the construction cost if Cary will underwrite the risk of the center running a deficit.

My message is that the line between public and private is not all that simple. And after a while the issue becomes "how do we get a theatrical arts center for downtown" rather than how do we spend our limited discretionary funds in the optimal way for all the citizens of Cary.

Stan

[Brent]

However, from a purely business viwpoint it is a dicey proposition with several other venues within a 30-40 minute drive. E.g. the BTI center in Raleigh is only 20 minutes from my home and is a national class center with four theaters.

Stan, would you realistically expect the Cary Concert Singers, Cary Town Band, Cary Applause! Youth Theater, etc. to perform at BTI? And a cultural arts center need not be restricted to the performing arts.

I don't care to go to BTI in downtown Raleigh unless there's some big draw there. It's just not all that easy or pleasant. I would go to downtown Cary to have dinner and a small-scale local show, probably more often than I would got to downtown Raleigh.

[Brent]

Perhaps the citizens of Cary should be polled as to the ranking of such an effort versus the alternatives.

stan

I agree. What would you consider to be the alternatives?

I don't recall being polled about USA Baseball, Tennis Center or SAS Soccer Park (which is too bad).

[Brent]

Do we dare compete with Raleigh on such a matters. We all know that the county commishes will sell us out in a heartbeat to keep Raleigh happy. Remember, Raleigh is trying to get "us" (all the people of Wake County) to visit them (and spend money).

[snip]

Keep in mind, if they want to build this downtown, they must address the inferstructure needs first (roads, traffic, parking, and trains). Also, I want to know what they plan to do with the old "Cary Elementary" building first. I have other ideas as well, but I want to see what others think as well.

Wuptdo B-)

I don't see this as being competitive with Raleigh. And if led by the private sector, this wouldn't be competitive in terms of government $ (like asking for hotel/meal tax money). Yes, Raleigh wants us to visit them and spend money. And I would expect that Raleigh would still get Seinfeld and The King And I. But I would be happy to stay in Cary and spend money and see the Cary Concert Singers or the Wuptdo quintet.

I agree that the Town would need to address the infrastructure...but they need to do that in any case, as far as I'm concerned. The question of Cary Elementary came up during Jack's talk...that is one possibility that should be investigated, but one should not assume that a cultural arts center must/should/could be there.

[Brent]

Brent,

I must be sick in the head...but I have to agree with John again. Suppose Jack's suggestion was what the Chamber and the Heart of Cary folks wanted to hear. Suppose they come back and say "we will do the arts center with private finacing" but need some TIP's from Cary. After all, Cary's cost of interst is far lower than ours and Cary's full faith and credit is not needed to guarantee those bonds (unless they default). Or perhaps they will say - what we need from Cary is a parking garage - or improved roads or we will put up the construction cost if Cary will underwrite the risk of the center running a deficit.

Stan, as long as we're supposing, do you think that anything other than "doing nothing" would result in any significantly different hypothetical proposals from groups like the HOC association? Yes, the public sector would have to facilitate such a cultural arts center (or any other major downtown draw). But I would rather see my tax $ go toward something like this than USA Baseball.

Also, I should be very clear: Jack explicitly stated that this is not "his" idea. He was a messenger of an idea that he thought merited exposure and discussion. He noted that the original idea was Holly Bankoski's. And I don't think Jack was to the point of saying "We must do this", or anything near that point. I gathered that he was suggesting that the idea be looked into.


My message is that the line between public and private is not all that simple. And after a while the issue becomes "how do we get a theatrical arts center for downtown" rather than how do we spend our limited discretionary funds in the optimal way for all the citizens of Cary.

Stan

I agree, and we should beware of such a trap. All I'm suggesting at this point is that the idea be pursued with some more serious discussions. If it doesn't pan out/isn't realistic, I would not suggest that it be force-fit into downtown.

[hollyL]

Now if we could resurrect the Carawee indians we could have a casino downtown...wouldn't that be a draw.

Probably have to nix this one...just got back from Vegas and there are way too many lights on casino signs. :wink: Heck I'm all for it though!

[StanN]

Brent,

I'd be the first to agree that the Chatham St. business district (our historic if not our actual "downtown") does not conform to the image of other, more up-to-date portions of Cary. And if private enterprise built such a center I would be among its customers - assuming the attraction was more interesting than in the Raleigh BTI center only an additional 10-15 minutes away. I also agree that it would be good for the nearby merchants, landlords and property owners. I'd go as far as saying that it is the only logical big draw for this part of Town and good well be a key to revitalizing this district.

But I think it is one of those things that is nice to have but doesn't address the most pressing problems in Cary. The underlying cause for our economic stagnation is the loss of high quality, high-paying jobs. Its simply a question of priorities for me. When I see us putting our dollars and people resources into doing the most important things first - then I could be a supporter of a arts center on Chatham St. But first we have to take care of the nuts and bolts of maintaining Cary as a great place to live - getting back to a constant, sustainable level of effort of improving our roads and streets rather than cutting the budget for same by 70%. Then we have to mount an effort to attract new emloyers and new high-quality jobs to Cary + an effort to assist the businesses we already have to grow + an effort to attract and help entrepeneurs start businesses in Cary.

We cannot continue to rely on an arm of the Raleigh Chamber of commerce to do our recruiting. (The Cary Chamber doesn't have the staff or the $'s to do it.) We cannot continue to base our communications with the existing, fast growing high-tech businesses to an annual golf outing. We cannot get by with zero dedicated staff and non-existent budget for economic developement. We cannot continue with an unfocused, half-hearted effort in economic development when our nearby competitors are spending money on economic development staff. Most of all we cannot get by with a town council that has been unable over four years and two administrations to decide what IT wants to do in economic development - or even it is wothwhile doing.

When we have achieved the goal of catalyzing more high-quality, high paying jobs in Cary every store owner and landlord in town will have the opportunity to prosper. The towns tax base will have grown so that we can afford the funds for a new arts center and the citizens will have the bucks to go to world class attractions there.

When the people who run this town build up a head of steam to address our most critical problems - then I'm ready to think about a new arts center. Until then its just another frill like Baseball USA.

Stan

[Wuptdo]

StanN wrote:


We cannot get by with zero dedicated staff and non-existent budget for economic developement. We cannot continue with an unfocused, half-hearted effort in economic development when our nearby competitors are spending money on economic development staff.

Stan a very interesting point. I would almost add it as an additional bullet to justify a paid "full-time" Mayor (as part of their job description). Just a thought, but I saw what a working Mayor can do to bring in business to town (Bob Barker down at Fuquay-Varina bringing in John Deere Tractor Plant back in the late 90's.)

Wuptdo B-)

[johnb]

Brent,

The comparison is actually quite good because the goal is the same. Government is trying to force an economic redevelopment in a place that businesses are loathe/reluctant to invest in because of "cultural negatives" that override government incentives.

In downtown Cary those "cultural negatives" include:

-lack of parking

-poor road condition

-poor road design

-the railroad tracks

-small building size

Let's say the Cultural Arts Fairy bestows upon Cary, at no charge to the taxpayers, a "Cultural Arts Center".....which of the above will be rectified?

*IF* the city were really serious about "fixing" downtown they'd fix their road problem. Until the city does that anything the politicians say about revitalizing downtown Cary is cheap talk and can be taken with a grain of salt. If the city were to magically punch our Chatham or Chapel Hill to four lanes and make one or better yet both east-west connectors for Maynard and Cary Parkway that alone would create a much needed incentive to redevelopment of the area. They would be drawing people through the area because it would be the best way to travel.

This is what I don't get about so many people here. You all complain about "sprawl" yet when it comes to redeveloping an area in the center of the city you refuse to acknowledge and move on the biggest problem the downtown has. You don't want "sprawl" but you also don't want anything else to happen. Crap. What do you people want?

Does anyone ever notice that no one throws up a new business in a vacant field miles from people and roads? Being in this area I thought some of y'all would be familiar with the way development/redevelopments works. Think about the order in which "sprawl" occurs. Redeveloping old/blighted/neglected areas requires the same type of incentivization.

[Brent]

Government is trying to force an economic redevelopment in a place that businesses are loathe/reluctant to invest in because of "cultural negatives" that override government incentives.

No, they're not. I see no evidence that government is trying to force any such thing. No one that I know of has suggested that government build this or "force" it to be built. But some people have suggested that talking about such a center as a downtown anchor that might stimulate economic development would be worthwhile.

A private-sector-led initiative such as this could very well result in public sector facilitation of the redevelopment -- specifically, things like improving the downtown infrastructure, such as roads and parking.

[johnb]

You don't see evidence of it? What was that Chatham Street plan last year then? They're wanting to drive Frantz Auto and a host of other such businesses out of the area. Again, without taking the steps necessary to actually revitalize the area.

Before anything happens the first step has got to be for the city to correct it's roads in the area. Until that happens anyone with any sense will just have to figure on all the talk in City Hallbeing nothing more than BS, outright lies, and "good" intentions that won't amount to a hill of beans.

[Brent]

Try to stay on topic, John.

The previous plan to amortize auto and storage businesses downtown was awful. I'm thoroughly against it, and I wrote a letter to the editor recently saying so.

I agree that what the Town ought to be doing downtown is improving infrastructure -- roads, stormwater remediation and improving existing parks.

But the original topic was the relative merits of a private-sector-led downtown cultural arts center. I still think the idea has merit and I hope that it gets some serious attention and discussion. In the absence of the private sector leading an initiative of this sort, we just might be stuck with the government-led initiatives that amortize auto businesses that we both deplore.

[johnb]

Brent,

It is of no value. It will do nothing to alleviate the problems of downtown. When it turns out to be more expensive than the backers imagined they'll do what every other such group in Cary does. They'll get city hall on the hook for it.

There is a real way to make downtown Cary a viable and vibrant business environment then there are games city hall and others play.

Until the road issue is dealt with it's all smoke and mirrors BS.

[Don]

Brent,

It is of no value. It will do nothing to alleviate the problems of downtown. When it turns out to be more expensive than the backers imagined they'll do what every other such group in Cary does. They'll get city hall on the hook for it.

There is a real way to make downtown Cary a viable and vibrant business environment then there are games city hall and others play.

Until the road issue is dealt with it's all smoke and mirrors BS.

It will help a little John.

The Town of Cary WILL, I repeat, WILL have a cultural arts facility. It's gonna happen John. It may be totally public funded, maybe totally prvate or a little of both, but it WILL happen. (I can't wait to see who they name it after btw! Glen's next right?) Anyways, The demand for this type of facility does exist. There is a shortage of space available and waiting lists now. With the historic district, public art :wink: , and just the uniqueness of downtown, a cultural arts facility just fits in downtown -so it should be built in downtown instead of somewhere else.

It will help downtown by creating additional traffic. Hopefully more foot traffic. The more people that come downtown, the more exposure downtown merchants will recieve - surely resulting in increased sales. This might be one new customer or twenty - don't know, but it will help. This one project won't in any way solve downtown's problems, but its a small step towards it. The merchants will have to do there part by being open when events or classes are held (alot of downtown shops are actually closed sat. and sun.) to be able to take advantage. What you really hope for is that once a few projects are completed and people begin to see results, it inspires everyone else to improve also. It takes everyone, not just the town.

Fix the roads downtown? why? we have the light rail coming man! 8-O

I agree 100% John - fix the roads. I also say solve stormwater/flooding problems and lets help the parking situation. But a cultural arts center can help downtown. How much remains to be seen. You are also spot on in the assumption it will lose money. Everything else has so far. (except CTRAN broke even this year...........with a federal grant :wink: )

[johnb]

"Fix the roads downtown? why? we have the light rail coming man! "

What a joke, a sick vision birthed in some socialist fever swamp that has no chance of being a viable, self-sustaining entity.

I agree 100% John - fix the roads. I also say solve stormwater/flooding problems and lets help the parking situation.

Until that happens all the rest is meaningless chatter. When is the city expected to move on these real issues? Or are we still chasing fantasies swathed in "public-private partnerships"?

But a cultural arts center can help downtown. How much remains to be seen.

I disagree with that. I think we all know how much it will "help". We may not want to admit it though. How many restraunts surround the BTI center? How many Bistro's and pubs and such things are there in downtown Raleigh? Yeah, there are a few. Consider the costs and look at that "benefit". Is that a cost/benefit ratio we need to pursue? Granted Cary is not Raleigh but what is consistant is that it is illogical to expect a facility like this "cultural arts center" to do anything to spur economic redevelopment of downtown Cary.

[Wuptdo]

Here's an idea. The Madstone theater over by the Mall has gone belly up. I believe they have 4 screens and plenty of seating, parking, and excellent road access. Buy the building, covert half of it for "performance art," paint a few murals on the side of the building, and wel-ahh, you have a cultural center. Whoops, need to have a statue (a "large bronze Dogwood Flower") in front of the building as well. Problem solved for maybe under $2 million dollars. :D

Wuptdo B-)


It's for the children; all the children!

[hollyL]

Actually, that isn't a bad idea. I live a 1/2 mile from there so maybe my property value will go up living so close to the cultural center.

Maybe if we really want culture here we can work on getting a population that isn't just rich white people...just a thought. :wink:

[Brent]

Here's an idea. The Madstone theater over by the Mall has gone belly up. I believe they have 4 screens and plenty of seating, parking, and excellent road access. Buy the building, covert half of it for "performance art," paint a few murals on the side of the building, and wel-ahh, you have a cultural center. Whoops, need to have a statue (a "large bronze Dogwood Flower") in front of the building as well. Problem solved for maybe under $2 million dollars. :D

Wuptdo B-)

Interesting idea, but I'm not sure that we need a "magnet" to make the mall/Crossroads area more of a "destination" to spur further development in that area...

[johnb]

The Wake County School system should buy it for Cary High as an auditorium/band concert hall/ etc....

Hey Wup, instead of a dogwood how about painting a giant middle finger, it would let the citizens of Cary know exactly what the council thinks of them.

[Don]

The Wake County School system should buy it for Cary High as an auditorium/band concert hall/ etc....

that is a **** good idea john


Hey Wup, instead of a dogwood how about painting a giant middle finger, it would let the citizens of Cary know exactly what the council thinks of them.

you sure you want him as your campaign manager DonH? 8-O

[Don]

"Fix the roads downtown? why? we have the light rail coming man! "

What a joke, a sick vision birthed in some socialist fever swamp that has no chance of being a viable, self-sustaining entity.

I hope you sensed my sarcasim. Maybe I should have used a winking emoticon?


I disagree with that.

then we should agree to disagree.

[johnb]

you sure you want him as your campaign manager DonH?

We could even call it "public art", hell, McMayor would pay me to paint middle fingers on the public buildings I'd bet. :wink:

I hope you sensed my sarcasim. Maybe I should have used a winking emoticon?

Not necesary, that subject really irks me. Of all the stupid ideas to push, why do these fools have to find the most expensive stupid idea around and push for that the hardest? Why couldn't they push really hard for equally stupid, but free ideas? Such as an honorary national blow kisses at the Moon holiday....it makes as much sense as the light rail, it'll generate as much income as the light rail, it'll have the same impact on traffic congestion as the light rail, the same mindless boobs who think light rail is a great idea could easily be fooled into getting on board that bandwagon, it'd be free and it wouldn't bust (or even impact) any government budget. It's almost as if the twits cannot get behind a really bad idea unless it is also really expensive.

[johnb]

that is a **** good idea john

Of course it is. It's obvious, it's simple, it could be very cost effective, and it would be a stepping stone to a bigger solution to Cary HS. Which is why the WCPSS will reject it out of hand. Wild Bill and his band of merry cretins want Big, Expensive, Loaded with Pork, and No Accountability "solutions".

The long term solution to Cary High is to start buying the land across the street. There isn't enouh room on site now to accomodate all the students and activities. Building a new school on the land in that triangle between Walnut, Maynard, and Cary Towne Center would provide a number of long term solutions. It would be expensive to buy out the owner of that land, but, the other options are less attractive. The existing band building could be leveled and that along with parking lot space could be turned into marching band practice fields. Other land on the current campus could be used to build an indoor pool for the swimming/diving team. That piece of Walnut street between Cary Town Center and Maynard would be closed and used as an entrance/exit from CHS parking areas. There is a solution to the problem of that undersized campus with aging buildings and terrible maintenance problems. HOWEVER, the WCPSS will NOT take action on CHS. The city will have to do it and that would give Cary leverage to protect the kids of this city against the WCPSS or be the first step in setting up a city school system to prevent Wild Bill and his cretins from further mischief against our kids.[/b]