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Spiros
08-10-2004, 02:57 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52900-2004Aug9.html

Planners' Brains vs. Public's Brawn
Neighbors' Hostility to Dense Projects Impairs Md. Land Preservation

By Peter Whoriskey
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, August 10, 2004; Page A01

Last of three articles

Maple Lawn Farms and its picturesque rolling fields sit three miles south of Columbia and midway between the converging metropolitan areas of Baltimore and Washington. A six-lane highway, Route 29, runs by one side, and the property is wrapped on three sides by subdivisions.

There is no question that the farm and its grain silo, barns and pastures will soon give way to suburbia. The only question is what kind of development should rise in its place.

To Maryland's state planners and leading environmental groups, the 508-acre site is ideally suited for "smart growth." Besides its convenient location, the property has access to water and sewer lines and lies within walking distance of three schools. They envision something like a town: a cluster of shops, offices, apartments and homes at a minimum density of about four to five homes per acre.

Yet it isn't going to turn out that way.

As has often happened under Maryland's celebrated smart-growth program, which calls for building compactly in "smart-growth areas" such as Maple Lawn Farms to preserve land elsewhere, neighborhood protesters opposed the project for being too big and too dense. And contested projects like Maple Lawn Farms are a major reason that the innovative program enacted seven years ago has yet to make a significant dent in Maryland's sprawling building patterns.

Under pressure from neighborhood groups, county planners had designated the Maple Lawn property for no more than three homes per acre, or about 1,524 houses, a typical suburban density. When a specific development was proposed, vehement local opposition whittled the project down, first to 1,372 homes, then to 1,168 and finally to 1,116, or a density of 2.2 homes per acre, well below smart-growth norms.

Neighbors of the Howard County project contend that like other portions of metropolitan Washington, they're struggling with crowded roads and schools and want to preserve as much open space as they can in their neighborhoods.

"Each and every Fulton Manor homeowner spent a considerable amount of money to buy their property, build their dream home and raise their families in an idyllic country setting," John D. Morton, president of a nearby homeowners association, wrote in a typical plea to the county's Zoning Board during its deliberations on Maple Lawn Farms. "Today our dreams appear to be turning into a nightmare."

Planners say that reducing the size of Maple Lawn Farms will lead developers responding to a continuing demand for housing to build their projects in the fields and woods smart growth was designed to preserve. But even the former chairman of the Howard County chapter of the Sierra Club, which as a national organization advocates smart growth, objected to the Maple Lawn project. He lives about a mile away and said he preferred a development with fewer homes.

"My area has mostly five acre or larger lots," Dennis Luck said in testimony filed with the Zoning Board. "We expected to see the area population grow with like development."

Maple Lawn Farms developer Stewart Greenebaum did not even try to build the 1,500 houses planners had envisioned at the site. Nonetheless, he acknowledged: "We were pummeled."

The Case for Density

If suburban sprawl and the ills it has been associated with -- air and water pollution, more driving, the fracturing of natural landscapes, even the national obesity problem -- have a solution, planners say it lies in focusing development into denser citylike or townlike settlements while leaving other areas untouched.

Residents could live, work and shop within these settlements, which by their compactness would cut down on driving. Mass transit, which often struggles to attract riders amid suburban sprawl, would become more practical.

It's either that, planners say, or more development scattered wastefully across the landscape.

"If we do not take steps to change our growth patterns," then-Gov. Parris N. Glendening (D) announced as he unveiled his smart-growth program in 1997, "the beautiful Maryland that we all love will be nothing more than a beautiful memory."

Glendening traces his thinking on land development to 1967 when, as a college student working a summer job in Miami, he watched glumly as subdivision after subdivision rose amid the Everglades. His concerns were compounded when, early in his political career, as a Hyattsville City Council member, he found himself repeatedly on the losing side of sprawl's outward surge.

He'd hoped to lure investors to the city to revitalize Route 1, a stretch of drab used-car lots and abandoned fast-food franchises. But developers told him over and over that they would rather buy farmland farther out to develop. "It didn't make sense," he said.

After his inauguration as governor in 1995, Glendening began casting about for a way to address sprawl and its impact: traffic jams, air pollution and the abandonment of cities.

He said he considered but quickly rejected as politically impossible a heavier regulatory approach such as Oregon's, which required cities to designate strict growth boundaries. He settled instead on a program largely based on incentives to developers. The incentives would come from the state, which would focus its spending for development infrastructure -- roads, water, sewer and schools -- in the smart-growth areas designated by local governments.

"We wanted to change the bottom line for developers," Glendening said. "We wanted to make it so that you didn't have to be a very bright businessman to know it was better to invest in a smart-growth area."

To win passage despite fierce opposition from Maryland's counties, Glendening and his planners were forced to compromise. The required densities in smart-growth areas, for example, are not as high as they would have liked. But the plan's passage was hailed as a milestone and touted by environmental groups across the country, largely because it created a statewide framework for the emerging smart-growth movement.

"At the time, I think it was a breakthrough," said David Goldberg, communications director for Smart Growth America, a nonprofit group that lobbies nationally for the concept. "Oregon's state planning is far and away the most comprehensive and probably the most effective. But Maryland's smart-growth program is next in line."

A review of key state and local planning records, however, shows no significant shifts in Maryland's development patterns since the passage of Glendening's smart-growth package. Growth still takes place where there was nothing, rather than where it has gone before.

Leading up to 1997, when the program began, about 75 percent of the land consumed by home building in Maryland was cut from pastures, woods and other parcels outside of the smart-growth areas. In 2001, the last year for which statewide data are available, the percentage was almost exactly the same, according to Maryland Department of Planning records.

More current development information gathered from five fast-growing Maryland counties similarly suggests no overall shift. In St. Mary's and Charles counties, the percentage of lots or building permits approved outside the smart-growth areas has been higher in recent years. In Howard and Frederick, there is no clear trend. Statistics were not available from Calvert.

Home building continues to consume roughly 25 square miles of Maryland landscape every year.

Some of the program's supporters argue that it may be premature to fully judge it because so many of today's building projects won initial approval before the new laws.

"It's too early to see a shift," said Douglas R. Porter, president of the Growth Management Institute, a nonprofit group based in Chevy Chase doing research and education. "It takes too many years for projects to work through the system."

But an unreleased November 2002 memo from Glendening's planners to the team of incoming Gov. Robert L. Ehrlich Jr. (R) raised questions about the program's effectiveness.

"The rate at which farm and forest land is being developed has not slowed," the memo said. "Our current smart growth laws and programs may not be sufficient to overcome the many obstacles that have made sprawl the dominant form of development."

As they were leaving office, Glendening's planners wrote that "although it may be too early to expect measurable changes in most areas, it is not too soon to start looking."

They saw "only modest progress" in reining in sprawl, but they did not pin the blame on developers. Instead, the report cited the pressure of neighbors' opposition to smart-growth projects, citing the "electoral backlash against local candidates seen as too indiscriminately favorable to rampant growth."

"Local officials are often stuck between a rock and a hard place," said Harriet Tregoning, special secretary in the Office of Smart Growth under Glendening. "Even when they want to put density in the right places, people will say they're in the pocket of developers. And it's hard, given our track record over the last 60 years, to tell people, 'Trust me.' "

At the local government level, plans to build homes or businesses in smart-growth areas have routinely been diluted or rejected. A development deemed a growth area by planners in Baltimore County was originally intended to have more than 11,000 homes. But fewer than half that number will be built after opposition forced developers to reduce the number of apartments.

The Fairwood development, rising on 1,059 acres in a smart-growth area in Bowie, was whittled down amid local opposition to a density of about 1.7 homes per acre.

But opposition to denser development is hardly confined to Maryland. Residential and retail projects around Metro stations -- considered ideal locations for smart growth because they would encourage using mass transit -- have been killed or scaled back because of neighborhood opposition in Takoma Park, Tenleytown and East Falls Church, and a project by Federal Realty in Bethesda has been delayed for years.

Many other smart-growth possibilities are killed even before they get to a proposal because master plans do not permit enough density. In the Briarwood section of Fairfax County, a site viewed by planners as logical for more homes because it lies about a half-mile from the Vienna Metro station, the county plan forbids apartments and townhouses.

"The neighborhood said they wanted single-family detached homes there," said Linda Q. Smyth (D-Providence), the Fairfax County supervisor for the area.

As a result, the developer is building at densities ranging from fewer than three homes per acre to slightly more than four homes per acre.

"It's a classic example," said Craig Havenner, president of Christopher Cos., the developer. "There is a housing shortage. But what might have been best for the region as a whole was not acceptable to the existing community."

Critics of smart growth contend that the basis for neighborhood opposition is elemental and immovable: Most Americans prefer fewer neighbors and won't willingly live in or tolerate the construction of denser neighborhoods.

"People generally prefer to live with a little bit more space and the mobility that only the car gives them," said Wendell Cox, one of the movement's most noted critics. He derides smart growth as "the opiate of the planners."

"That is a very difficult problem for people who believe we should live in higher densities to solve. In fact, it's impossible."

In this, he echoes some county leaders in Maryland who continue to question smart-growth objectives.

"Smart growth is inconsistent with the American dream of a big home on a five-acre lot," said David Bliden, executive director of the Maryland Association of Counties, which opposed Glendening's effort as an unreasonable intrusion into counties' power to regulate building. "The concept of a higher authority, of a Big Brother, is inconsistent with the democratic principles that have to be intertwined with land use management."

Advocates of smart growth argue that better-designed neighborhoods -- such as the fashionable neo-traditional towns with nostalgic architecture sprouting at Kentlands in Gaithersburg -- will make denser neighborhoods not only tolerable but also attractive to home buyers.

In an interview at his offices at the Smart Growth Leadership Institute, where he consults with government officials about smart-growth issues, Glendening acknowledged the difficulties facing the program but also noted its achievements.

Among them: The state spent more than $130 million acquiring nearly 52,000 acres of rural land for preservation; hundreds of millions of state school construction dollars were shunted toward established towns and cities rather than rural areas; some counties -- notably, Wicomico, Calvert and Washington -- have strengthened restrictions on developing rural land.

The program's most significant achievement, he said, was one of consciousness.

"We made it a public issue -- that's probably the most important thing," he said. "Episodically, you can point to all kinds of successes. . . . [But] we did not get here -- meaning sprawl and the abandonment of existing communities -- we did not get here overnight. The nation worked very hard for 60 years to develop the system that we've got. . . . So it's like changing the course of the Queen Elizabeth. You can just barely see it start to move."

Aside from the power of local opposition to undo smart growth, critics have pointed out other problems. Some local governments mapped smart-growth areas on land that should have been preserved as rural. Others, after choosing sensible smart-growth boundaries, made it too easy for developers to build in the natural areas outside them.

But if there's one thing that developers, home builders and environmentalists can agree on, it's that the financial incentives for developing inside the smart-growth areas have proved too weak.

"I don't think the dollars ever flowed in the amounts they needed to flow," said David Flanagan of Elm Street Development, a firm that has developed projects inside and outside smart-growth areas. "The idea behind smart growth was probably sound, but the execution and funding. . . . I think the rate of sprawl is faster today than I've ever seen it."

The smart-growth laws are still on the books, and Ehrlich last fall announced his own program intended to revitalize Maryland's cities. "It has always been in the Ehrlich administration's plans to build upon the smart-growth program by preserving its core mission: to encourage redevelopment of older communities and neighborhoods," said Shareese N. DeLeaver, a spokeswoman for the governor.

But in other ways, Ehrlich has not seemed committed to the program or its goals. He has eliminated the job of smart-growth secretary, a Cabinet-level position under Glendening. And environmentalists cite Ehrlich's support for road projects such as the intercounty connector and the widening of Route 32 in Howard County as evidence of his lack of commitment.

"We do hear a lot of rhetoric," said Dru Schmidt-Perkins, executive director of 1000 Friends of Maryland, an environmental group. "But he's creating exemptions in the law that you could drive a truck through, and he has absolutely decimated the funds for acquiring open space."

One Project's Plight


Even before the passage of smart growth, Howard County planners had designated the Maple Lawn Farms property for a combination of offices, shops and homes. Amid neighborhood complaints, the maximum planned density had been set at three homes per acre.

Once the state's smart-growth program passed, Howard County planners designated the area around Maple Lawn Farms as a smart-growth area.

They believed building homes there could relieve development pressure in Howard's more rural areas. A state report had noted that 14 percent of the county's unprotected agricultural land was developed during the 1990s, more than any other Maryland county. The report warned that it "may soon cease to have a viable agriculture industry."

The project was originally designed to include space for offices and shops, and Greenebaum agreed during negotiations with the neighbors that all of it would be laid out according to neo-traditional neighborhood design principles, which emphasize walking over driving. He frequently compared it to Kentlands, a celebrated "new urbanist" community nearby.

"Maple Lawn is an anti-sprawl development," Greenebaum said. "It takes the pressure off of areas that really shouldn't be developed."

But he never persuaded neighbors such as Peter Oswald, who testified against the Maple Lawn project. "I don't accept the hypothesis that these areas are smart for growth," Oswald said. "We need to demonstrate that there are adequate schools and roads before asking people to add to problems they already have."

After 32 public hearings, Maple Lawn is in the beginning stages of construction. When finished, it will have half the density of Kentlands.

"Smart growth is something people want," said Marsha McLaughlin, Howard County's planning director, who had supported more homes on the property. "They just don't want it in their own neighborhood."

Spiros
08-10-2004, 03:08 PM
It's either that, planners say, or more development scattered wastefully across the landscape.

"If we do not take steps to change our growth patterns," then-Gov. Parris N. Glendening (D) announced as he unveiled his smart-growth program in 1997, "the beautiful Maryland that we all love will be nothing more than a beautiful memory."

Glendening traces his thinking on land development to 1967 when, as a college student working a summer job in Miami, he watched glumly as subdivision after subdivision rose amid the Everglades. His concerns were compounded when, early in his political career, as a Hyattsville City Council member, he found himself repeatedly on the losing side of sprawl's outward surge.

"Smart growth is something people want," said Marsha McLaughlin, Howard County's planning director, who had supported more homes on the property. "They just don't want it in their own neighborhood."

I thought this was good reading on how "Smart Planners" want to control where and how a citizen chooses to live. This sounds a lot like what some planners and politicians in Cary and Wake County want to plan the growth for our area! Let the comments begin!

Cathy
08-10-2004, 10:37 PM
Thank you Spiros, for posting this article here!

The article was also posted to the American Dream Coalition forum and included comments:


----- Original Message -----
From: C. Kenneth Orski
To: American Dream Coalition
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 6:13 PM
Subject: [PreservingtheAmericanDream] The Limits of Smart Growth


Last November we wrote, "In the end, the verbal skirmishes fought over 'smart growth' are of little practical consequence, for the 'smart growth' movement has no power to reshape America's urban landscape in any significant way. The demographic and economic forces driving metropolitan expansion are too powerful to be reined in or influenced by a planning ideology... . The 'smart growth' movement is likely to go down in history as yet another example of a planning ideology that has foundered for lack of a realistic understanding of the power of demographic pressures, market forces and consumer preferences." (Innovation Briefs, "The Backlash Against "Smart Growth," Nov/Dec 2003).
The enclosed article by Peter Whoriskey in today's Washington Post provides an eloquent confirmation of our viewpoint.

Ken Orski, Editor Innovation Briefs
http://www.innobriefs.com/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52900-2004Aug9.html

INVESTING IN SPRAWL:
The Limits of Smart Growth
Planners' Brains vs. Public's Brawn
Neighbors' Hostility to Dense Projects Impairs Md. Land Preservation

By Peter Whoriskey
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, August 10, 2004; Page A01

SteveG
08-11-2004, 01:36 PM
The moral of the story is that even though there are developers who are on board with the neotraditional compact development philosophy, and see a healthy, if niche, market for it, the primary opposition to such development is NIMBY residents using the tools of government to keep nearby development densities low, and thus increase the area of land developed per capita.

Spiros
08-11-2004, 02:48 PM
Steve, you are absolutely correct. The NIMBY residents in our fine town are trying to do the same thing. When the previous Cary town council overeacted and implemented smart growth planning, the builders and developers moved their projects to Apex, Morrisville, Holly Springs, Fuquay and unincorporated parts of Wake County.

SteveG
08-11-2004, 05:33 PM
Steve, you are absolutely correct. The NIMBY residents in our fine town are trying to do the same thing. When the previous Cary town council overeacted and implemented smart growth planning, the builders and developers moved their projects to Apex, Morrisville, Holly Springs, Fuquay and unincorporated parts of Wake County.

So what exactly do you call the current PDDs for Amberly, Cary Park, Weston, etc. all which are moving toward clustering of mixed use and higher densities where the "smart growth" model encourages them?

I talk to developers; for example, I met with the developers and landowners for some proposed residential developments in Weston this week. They want to cluster higher density residential close to popular destinations, office and recreational - they see a market for it, and are asking for rezoning to pursue that market. They want to incorporate many aspects of "smart growth" for their own business interests. But, they report that they are getting push-back from nearby NIMBY residents who want to keep residential densities low.

For every protest petition the town gets against increasing density, there is a land owner and developer who want to build at higher density. The vast majority of complaints I see against higher density and mixed use zoning and land use plans come from residents adjacent to the subject properties, not the landowners themselves. The landowners in these cases are the ones who want to allow the higher densities, because they believe the market will support such. It is nearby single-family homeowners who are the strongest force at keeping densities low in areas where land prices are high.

Wuptdo
08-11-2004, 07:45 PM
This afternoon I attended a meeting with representatives from Highwoods Properties. The subject: converting 35 acres of O&I zoning to high density residential (517 Rental Apartments) on Lake Crabtree (behind the old IBM building). Highwoods Properties is in the process of converting (or have already) converted some of their parcels in Weston into various residential parcels. One of the parcels even qualifies as "affordable" housing by Cary standards (townhomes in $200-240K range).

My biggest fear is that TC will force Highwoods to make the apartments either HUD housing or at a minimum "Section 8." Their goes the neighborhood! 8O

I can almost image all our "smart growth" folks at CP doing the happy Snoopy dance! :)

Wuptdo B-)

StanN
08-11-2004, 07:46 PM
I totally agree with Steve about density and my experience on the County Planning Board parallels his. Although there are many on this board and in the community for whom density is a fighting word, there are forces that make it inevitable - at least in the cities and near the cities. One is the increasing price of land in Cary and other desireable cities. If not offset with density, housing prices will not be competitive, especially with homes in the UA. And as we drive people away from job centers, cultural centers and shopping - the cost of the road network for all of us rises to unsupportable levels. Especially if and when those requiring the greatest amount of new road capacity - those living the furthest from the cities - are exempted from their proportionate share of the tax burden.

Secondly, for many the nature of work has changed. That big house in the country carries a big mortgage and is an act of faith in continued employment. Increasingly the high-tech professionls have no such security- the middles bounce from project to project every year or two - with uncertainty in between. And in an era of both spouses working who has time for big lawns.

Thirdly, many of those in the fast growing graying sector of our society don't want the burden or cost of a big lawn. I speak from personal experience.

Of course I am talking about generalities and trends and the culturized, in-grained lure of the big "white house in the country" with the big lawn is hard to supress. But the trends and demographics are immutable for the forseeable future. If Cary wants to become a sleepy backwater for the rich it can ignore the trends. Mixed use villages like Cary Glen, Amberly and Carpenter Village are models for the future and we have to figure out how to make them succeed. Ditto for the luxury apartment condos such as those under construction in MacGregor. Quality, dense, residential areas, preserving common open space for recreation and beauty, responding to the marketplace, are one key to getting Cary moving again.
stan

Cathy
08-11-2004, 10:09 PM
Let's not forget that the Comprehensive Land Use Plan and the "overlay zoning" for mixed use, high density sets the requirement for how parcels are developed. Developers who want to build on these parcels have little choice but to comply. Does this sound like free market or market manipulation?

Since the "powers that be" in the Land Use Planning crowd have decided to push for higher density mixed use, there seems to be little stopping the continued construction of more apartments and townhomes. The area market for these is pretty much at the saturation point. We won't have much longer to wait and see how much "market" there is for more of this.

The Smart Growth, New Urbanists still cry "unfair" about being able to build these mixed use communities, but it just ain't so any more. They won't be satisfied until almost everyone has little choice other than high density, mixed use living.
This looks like social engineering to me, and the alarmist excuses for doing it are getting very old. With 95% of America still left undeveloped, it's ridiculous.

Although there are people who truly are NIMBY's and think that they should dictate what others can do with their land, you can't honestly paint every argument in opposition to high density "NIMBY".

Cathy

SteveG
08-12-2004, 11:36 AM
Let's not forget that the Comprehensive Land Use Plan and the "overlay zoning" for mixed use, high density sets the requirement for how parcels are developed. Developers who want to build on these parcels have little choice but to comply. Does this sound like free market or market manipulation?

Cathy

Cathy,

How many landowners do you know of who opposed a land use plan or overlay district for higher density or mixed use because they wanted to develop their property as a lower density single use residential? In the places where such overlays were proposed, the higher density would make the landowners more money.

The major opposition that I remember came from residents who didn't want to see the neighborhood change, not landowners wanting to build lower density housing. The remaining opposition came from business owners who did not want the land use plan to interfere with their possible interest in expanding what would become nonconforming uses.

In some cases, residents have been torn between wanting to keep their aging low-density neighborhood as it is versus redeveloping at higher density for considerable profit. Some want the government to allow the density, others oppose it. In this case, the government cannot possibly please everyone. But at least going through the land use plan update process gets the neighbors talking to one another and allows for some longer-term thinking and preparation for what may come.

SteveG
08-12-2004, 01:53 PM
Since the "powers that be" in the Land Use Planning crowd have decided to push for higher density mixed use, there seems to be little stopping the continued construction of more apartments and townhomes. The area market for these is pretty much at the saturation point. We won't have much longer to wait and see how much "market" there is for more of this.

The Smart Growth, New Urbanists still cry "unfair" about being able to build these mixed use communities, but it just ain't so any more. They won't be satisfied until almost everyone has little choice other than high density, mixed use living.
This looks like social engineering to me, and the alarmist excuses for doing it are getting very old. With 95% of America still left undeveloped, it's ridiculous.
Cathy

The activity being initiated by developers and land owners (e.g. Highwoods properties) indicates that they see a profit motive building condos and apartments near employment centers (e.g. Weston). They are requesting rezoning to accommodate this. The government isn't leading here, it's following. If Highwoods is wrong in their profit forecast, that's their problem.

Most of the government planning support in the Triangle for higher density is based on a desire to accommodate market demand and to steer the location of such products where the transportation benefits will be greatest with the neighbor impacts limited.

There are a few pro-transit anti-car people who really do want to convince lots of people to give up their cars and yards and change their lifestyles. But these people are in the minority even among city planners. The rest of the planning community understands that some people might adopt less car-intensive lifestyles if enough new urbanism product is made available, but that deliberately reducing the availability of low density housing won't work - people who want to live in low density will just move farther away from their destinations. So most of the resulting planning effort to provide increased density it supply-side based on market forecasts, some more hopeful than others.

Cathy
08-12-2004, 10:56 PM
Well, I guess we saw a developer requesting permission to develop a piece of land at lower densities than the LDO would ALLOW at tonights Council Meeting.

Now they are discussing amending the ordinance for PDD's so single family housing is no longer excluded as a permitted use.


Cathy

Brent
08-13-2004, 07:37 AM
Yes, Cathy, I found it fascinating that single-family residential is NOT ALLOWED in an activity center!

It's almost as if they are trying to ENCOURAGE higher density (now where have I heard that before? :wink: ).

And I found it amusing that the applicant and Staff couldn't seem to agree on what constitutes a "patio home". Everyone knows it's that Irish guy who lives in the neighborhood -- Paddy O'Home :lol: ).

Brent
08-13-2004, 07:41 AM
Oh, and another fascinating item:

If I recall correctly from the SW Area Plan discussion, the Town's definition of "Low Density" allows density of up to 4 dwellings per acre, and "Very Low Density" allows density of up to, I think, 2 dwellings per acre. I think those are the numbers; I could be wrong, but if I'm even in the ballpark, do you think that ANYONE who just looked at a zoning map would envision quarter-acre lots when they saw "low density"?

Cathy
08-13-2004, 10:35 PM
Paddy O'Home !!!! VERY funny!!! :-D
Jerry Turner almost lost his composure when he got up to speak about that!

Hmmmm....I don't know, where DID you hear that planners were trying to "encourage" high density? B-)
I've always said they are trying to ENFORCE it. :twisted:

If the Activity Centers DID allow single family homes, I wonder how many builders would have submitted site plans that had single family homes instead of apartments or townhomes?? We'll never know.

And on the SW Area Plan_ I thought that the Low and Very Low Density criteria were absurd. Always have. Especially since I have always felt that few people realized that the planners definition and almost everyone else's definition of them were world's apart.

I also wonder how many are aware that the Dwelling Units per acre will probably end up being concentrated into a smaller area of the total developed parcel? That is what will be required because of the "Conservation" designation.

If the developer has 16 acres under VLD, he will not be able to create 32 half acre lots and build one home on each. Quite a bit of the sixteeen acres will be left as "open space' with the DU's clumped together in a much higher density. A Conservation Subdivision. It will still look like high density to anyone who sees it.

Cathy

Anonymous
08-16-2004, 01:05 PM
Kudos to whoever posted the articles about growth from the Washington Post. These articles make the case very well that more regulations---not planning for housing---can lead to more sprawl.

Let's hope our leaders in the Triangle learn from the mistakes of the Washington DC area.

CHRIS SINCLAIR

SteveG
08-16-2004, 04:07 PM
I don't have my copy of the LDO with me, but if they are talking about changing it in order to allow single family detached within an activity center, it's because they wish to accommodate the developer's wishes to do so. They probably never had a request to do this before, and so no red flags went up when the draft LDO was under consideration.

Most activity center uses have historically been considered incompatible with the target market for single family detached homes. Imagine somebody wanting to build a $500,000 detached home between a Jiffy Lube and a Wal-Mart. But activity center plans have come a long way. Now developers see a market for housing mixed with shops and services that interest the residents or with office uses that aren't so unbearable. Some of this housing gets located above the shops, others adjacent, per the new urbanism model. The developers I talk to say they want to build this sort of thing, but Cary's old regulations prohibited it, and so the changes to Cary's ordinances were intended to allow it, not require it.

Now it looks like some of the activity centers are potentially so desirable to live in that the developers want to diversify the housing stock to include single family detached. Sounds fine to me, as long as it's understood that such homes won't enjoy the protection of the buffering regulations that apply to normal single family detached zoning.

I recall a few developments that have included a mixture of retail and office activity center uses within the same master plan as multi-family and single family detached. The Sears Farm PUD was one. But that was a big PUD, not just an activity center.

-Steve Goodridge

Wuptdo
08-16-2004, 05:07 PM
I must admit I have learned much form you all about these various planning & zoning issues. However, mixed use residential zoning scares the BG's out of me. I have made a significant investiment into my home and don't want to see my property values reduced by "low-income" housing nearby. But I an reminded again and again, that we can't survive without "low incoming" housing. We have seen a history where big housing projects have failed. I have seen first hand when good neighborhoods are destroyed as soon as a few "section 8" houses go for rent. I don't understand when people are given either free rent or subdized rent that they must also destroy not only where they live, but the surrounding community as well. What is the solution and what is their problem.?

Wuptdo B-)

kellyc
08-16-2004, 10:29 PM
WUp...thats a dangerous question to ask. I for one dont think Cary needs any Section 8 housing or that kind of affordable housing. I used to think the town needed to make sure that cops/policeman on their salaries could buy a house in Cary if they want too...i.e a 125 thousand house in a nice neighborhood. However I believe these houses exsist today, and there is no need to add any more.

As for the taking care of their section 8 housing, I suspect some do. However some people just get stuck in the same mode, and cant ever figure out that they need to look in the mirror instead of holding their hand out and saying poor old me.

Kelly

Cathy
08-17-2004, 12:43 PM
To Stan and Steve:

Let's see....
Carpenter Village is built out on the fringe of urbanization.
There is no Public Transit serving the community.
The Village Center is a vacant grassy lot.
No shops, no employment, lot's of vacant housing, and new construction has come to a standstill because there is too much unsold housing.

I have heard that Southern Village has had lot's of problems with keeping shops open in the Village.

I have seen Kentlands for myself.
It is also built out on the fringes of previously developed urbanization. It has no transit stop you can walk to and no hope of being on a rail line.
A notable feature of the dense housing are the GARAGES that are included. Some face forward to the streets. Some are off of back alleys that are so narrow the owners can barely turn their cars into them.
The housing is much too expensive for the average person, and the core of "shops" did not seem too lively. It seemed that much of the space was used for professional offices.
The streets are so narrow that the Fire Dept hates them.
Kentlands has a Whole Food Market. It is NOT in the "shops" area; it is next to the housing, and it has it's very own LARGE PARKING LOT.
There is also a large barn that was preserved and converted into a 'artsy' community center. Local artists display their paintings. I couldn't help but notice that some of the artists seemed to like to paint pictures of idyllic settings of grassy back yards with lawn furniture. It was comical!

I've been to Portland (New Urbanist Nirvana) and toured the Transit Oriented Developments, about a half dozen or so.
The Portland TOD's are a case study in TIF subsidized development:
http://www.stopmetro.com/por/UR/UR_Taxes.htm

One had NO shops built yet. Just a open grassy field by the transit stop.
Two others had shops, but one had ZERO tenants, just a row of empty store fronts. The realtors had given up trying to rent them. This same TOD had also had a large open undeveloped field between it and the rail stop.

The other TOD had lot's of empty shops, shoddy construction, a history of bankruptcy problems getting it to completion, and it was built next to a commercial center that couldn't get much else to move in except a large auto dealership.

A high density project that was built more into town was a combination of retirement housing and regular apartments. Some of the residents came out to complain about the shoddy construction and other problems. One elderly resident said the walls were so thin that he could hear his neighbor snoring all night. The regular apartments were in a U-shaped building and all had tiny balconies that overlooked an inner courtyard of nothing but concrete.
http://www.cascadepolicy.org/pdf/env/P_1019.htm

The Pearl District was the one high density development that was attractive as far as quality of construction, but it was very pricey and there did not appear to be much of interest around that you could walk to. And the sidewalks were pretty empty. Pearl residents are enjoying incredible tax abatements for this high dollar real estate, as are most of the TOD's in Portland:
http://www.stopmetro.com/

Driving around Portland, it wasn't unusual to see a neighborhood of single family homes sprouting multi-story apartment complexes in them on lots that obviously used to be single family home sites. I could just imagine the outcry from residents if this were to start happening here!

In Portland, these property owners are restricted from building single family homes in most areas. The pressure is on developers to build multi-family housing. It's gone far beyond just relaxing the zoning to allow mixed use development. It is mandated and heavily subsidized by the tax payers.

And you are right Steve, most people do not want a single family home next to retail and commercial. The market still favors single family homes in restricted use areas.

And Stan, since you are feeling that you, and perhaps some others, no longer want the burden or cost of a big lawn, does that justify restricting the availability of this lifestyle for everyone? When you make statements like;

"...the culturized, in-grained lure of the big "white house in the country" with the big lawn is hard to supress."
it is telling and disturbing.
SUPPRESS????!!! So you think that this desire should be suppressed?????
You could move into a retirement community right now. They are available and probably have transportation for residents included. You could unload some of those necessary evils that you own.

After we build all of these little mixed use 'villages' do you honestly think that the residents will have a secure job inside their own village? What if they don't? Do you think that if someone loses a job that they have in their local mixed use village and they find one in another mixed use village that they should pick up and move?
Is this your vision for the future?
We should have ever more transient residents on a micro scale within an area? People should have no roots, no sense of community with their immediate neighbors because they owe it to the 'public good' to stay within walking distance of their job opportunities?

Steve,_Before you start making excuses for the LDO restrictions on single family housing and continue to lay the reason for high density on developers requesting this construction, ask yourself how many developers do you think would actually try to challenge the LDO requirements just to develop something non-conforming??
It's already an expensive, drawn out ordeal to get approval for development that conforms to the LDO. You can't lay the blame for this entirely on "NIMBY"S.

Oberlin residents were labeled NIMBY's when they tried to block Coker Towers. They had pretty rational concerns about the impact of that development on the existing infrastructure.
Five Points residents were labeled NIMBY's when they opposed the construction of townhome infill smack dab in the middle of the historic single family homes of the area. It seemed rational to me that they felt that the townhomes were out of character with the traditional neighborhood.

It seems all too common that if the logic of the opposing group can't be defeated, then one just attacks the group personally with a derogatory label!
The "SPRAWL" label is a similar tactic.
You can call it anything that you like, but it is still single family homes in self contained, single use neighborhoods, the kind most people seem to prefer.

Don
08-17-2004, 12:44 PM
Imagine somebody wanting to build a $500,000 detached home between a Jiffy Lube and a Wal-Mart.



What's a Jiffy Lube? :wink:

Brent
08-17-2004, 01:11 PM
Oberlin residents were labeled NIMBY's when they tried to block Coker Towers. They pretty rational concerns about the impact of that development on the existing infrastructure.
Five Points residents were labeled NIMBY's when they opposed the construction of townhome infill smack dab in the middle of the historic single family homes of the area. It seemed rational to me that they felt that the townhomes were out of character with the traditional neighborhood.

I and many of my neighbors were labelled NIMBYs when we opposed a big-box store between our kids' elementary and middle schools (even though many of us would have supported it at other nearby sites...some closer to our homes than the chosen site).

Wuptdo
08-17-2004, 02:09 PM
Hey Brent, who would ever call you a NIMBY? :wink:

Brent - that was a great posting. I see you did your homework! B-Z

Now if I can only find my data on the ultimate City planning from back in the 1960's - "Brasilia'"

Oh, that's right, what other countries have tried and worked (or failed) doesn't matter. Maybe we can take a few lesson's from the Chinese on what to do with urban populations. I don't think you will find too many "five, four, and door" housing near Peking (or even Hong Kong).

Wuptdo (Who almost became a NIMBY) B-)

Spiros
08-17-2004, 03:24 PM
Now watch it Wup, I was born in Brazil when Brasilia was a concept but my parents were smart enough to immigrate to the land of the free! :wink:

Don't knock the "five, four, and door" housing. It is probably the most popular style in this area but not my choice. :D

After 6 years of serving my country in the Navy and having a small bunk in a crowded submarine, I vote to have choice and not give in to the some Urban planners telling us how and where to live!

Spiros

kellyc
08-17-2004, 03:55 PM
Imagine somebody wanting to build a $500,000 detached home between a Jiffy Lube and a Wal-Mart.



What's a Jiffy Lube? :wink:


A very fast...ummmmm...okay well John/Brent/ShineyDon fill in the blank for him.

Kelly

Wuptdo
08-17-2004, 04:18 PM
Spiros - not trashing Brazil at all. See below:

http://www.mre.gov.br/cdbrasil/itamaraty/web/ingles/artecult/arqurb/urbanism/cbrasil/

However, what is not mentioned is that the population had a very difficult time adjusting to the "bland" high density living. After a few years, development began to happen in the country side, i.e., urban sprawl.
Also, nothing against "5,4, and door," however, I believe this type of housing will not be available for my children and definately not my grandchildren (cost). :(

Jiffy Lube (owned by the same person in both South & North Carolina) is a place where I do not go. Without going into detail - bad customer & service work.

Wuptdo B-)

Spiros
08-17-2004, 04:28 PM
Thanks for the article on Brazil Wup! It is good to learn a little bit about one's roots. I know you were not trashing Brazil, and I plan on visiting in the next year or so.

I agree with you on the "5,4 & a door" style of housing becoming un-affordable in the future. :(

Brent
08-17-2004, 04:30 PM
Imagine somebody wanting to build a $500,000 detached home between a Jiffy Lube and a Wal-Mart.



What's a Jiffy Lube? :wink:


A very fast...ummmmm...okay well John/Brent/ShineyDon fill in the blank for him.

Kelly

Oh, I'm not going to touch that one with a ten-foot...oops...never mind! :lol: :lol: :lol:

SteveG
08-18-2004, 10:24 AM
Cathy,

I use the term NIMBY to be concise, not derogatory. My own complaints about Cary staff's attempt to upgrade the Maynard/Evans area to a community activity center without a public hearing could fairly be labeled as NIMBY-inspired, since this is my neighborhood. There are plenty of rational reasons for neighbors to want to influence nearby development to suit their preferences and interests. There are also irrational ones, too.

The simple fact is that the primary force limiting development density and proximity of nonresidential to residential development in expanding suburbs is political opposition by single family homeowners. Landowners who wish to develop their properties typically have a financial incentive to develop more intensely than the single-family detached homeowner neighbors want, and a political process, i.e. some government interference with landowner rights, attempts to enable a compromise.

I have been a big critic of some neotraditional products such as Carpenter Village where I believe the location and phasing will not deliver the supposed convenient neotraditional lifestyle that was being promised to the homebuyers. But I do believe the developers' claims that a market exists for housing on smaller lots with greater proximity to goods, services, and other destinations, and I support Cary's efforts to allow such a product as part of the land use planning and zoning process. In no way is my support for neotraditional development a rejection of the attractiveness of single family detached homes, single use zoning, or the convenience of automobile travel. But some people have different needs and preferences.

-Steve Goodridge

Wuptdo
08-18-2004, 01:37 PM
I heard on the news the last night that the U.S. was getting ready to hit the 300 million mark in population. 8-O

Anyway, found this really cool website site:

http://www.ibiblio.org/lunarbin/worldpop/index.html

And here is the U.S. Government website:

http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/popclock

Line three really bothers me.

What are we going to do with all the people?

Wuptdo B-)

Cathy
08-18-2004, 11:38 PM
Cathy,

I use the term NIMBY to be concise, not derogatory.

<text deleted>

But I do believe the developers' claims that a market exists for housing on smaller lots with greater proximity to goods, services, and other destinations, and I support Cary's efforts to allow such a product as part of the land use planning and zoning process. In no way is my support for neotraditional development a rejection of the attractiveness of single family detached homes, single use zoning, or the convenience of automobile travel. But some people have different needs and preferences.

-Steve Goodridge

Steve,

In most every case that I have seen the term NIMBY used, it is in a derogatory manner, not as a neutral term of discription.

I agree with you that regulation should not prohibit development of the various choices of lifestyle that consumers want.
Building a mixed use, high density, development for those who want it does not bother me. It should be allowed and not forced. Forcing high density has bad results, obviously, by the examples that I cited.

What does bother me is the fact that the ordinance goes too far if it has been rewritten to prohibit single family homes in a residential area.
If the land was open to all types of residential choice, then the developers would respond to the market that exists.

Why did they prohibit single family? Do the developers need the government to help them respond to consumer demands?
Developers never seemed to have a problem with responding to the market in the past. And if single family homes weren't a popular choice, they wouldn't have built so many I would think.
I've never met someone who was forced to move into a single family home because they couldn't find an alternative that suited them better.

In regard to the "NIMBY" problem, perhaps the process as it is written is encouraging an unrealistic sense of 'rights' on the part of adjoining landowners.

I believe the adjoining landowners should be given the opportunity to be heard, but they should be heard in a forum that requires that they prove harm or nuisance. Perhaps the forum should be held more like a "day in court" with an impartial party making a ruling on whether the objections have merit, not left for the politicians and planners to decide.

Building the townhomes/mixed use on land adjoining Medfield does not bother me, and I don't think that Medfield should dictate the land use. Whether the development would have a negative impact on property owners in Medfield IS of concern to me and many others in Medfield. If we can prove harm, we should have an effective means to be heard and our concerns addressed.

Cathy