Kerry's Cambodia question _or_ Gary Hart II

[johnb]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ideas_opinions/story/220785p-189814c.html

Kerry's Cambodia question

He says he served there, critics say not so.
The answer's crucial

John Edwards is supposed to be a great lawyer but at the recent Democratic convention he made a rookie mistake: He raised a question without knowing the answer. "If you have any questions about what John Kerry's made of, just spend three minutes with the men who served with him," he said.
Edwards meant Kerry's "band of brothers" - the small entourage of vets who served under him in Vietnam and now strongly support him for President.

Evidently, Edwards did not know at the time that almost every officer who commanded Kerry or served alongside him opposes his candidacy. Worse, they have formed a group, Swiftboat Veterans for Truth, that claims more than 250 members.

Their case against Kerry is set forth in a new book, "Unfit for Command," co-written by longtime Kerry critic John O'Neill, and in a TV ad from the group.

Kerry's critics in arms allege that he didn't deserve one of his Purple Hearts and his Bronze Star. They make these claims on the basis of firsthand knowledge. But combat is notoriously confusing, and soldiers in the heat of battle make poor witnesses. Kerry deserves the benefit of the doubt. If the Navy says he won his medals fair and square, that's good enough for me.

What Kerry did (or didn't do) in Cambodia is a different matter.

On March 27, 1986, Kerry told his fellow senators: "I remember Christmas of 1968, sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by the Vietnamese and the Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and the President of the United States telling the American people that I was not there, the troops were not in Cambodia.

"I have that memory, which is seared - seared - in me."

Here's the problem: Kerry's commanding officers and some of his crew members reportedly deny that he was in Cambodia on Christmas 1968. They say he was stationed near the town of Sa Dec, 55 miles from the Cambodian border.

Kerry's people are trying hard to discredit his discreditors. They call "Unfit for Command" co-author O'Neill a Republican hack with a decades-long grudge against Kerry. They say Texas moneymen close to Karl Rove are behind the TV spots and are warning TV stations, in writing, not to air them. They maintain that the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth are motivated by jealousy of Kerry or anger at his post-Vietnam anti-war activities. They want to dismiss all questions about Kerry's war record as sleazy slander.

Sorry, but that's not going to wash. The issue is not whether the charges against Kerry are politically motivated (they obviously are) or who is paying for them. There's just one relevant question: Are the allegations true? Specifically, is it true he lied about being in Cambodia.

Unlike the debate over Kerry's medals, this is a matter that can be checked and verified. If it turns out Kerry was there, the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth are liars and their charges are, in the words of Kerry's friend John McCain, "dishonest and dishonorable." But if he wasn't there, the Kerry campaign is saddled with a problem it can't solve by calling Republicans names, threatening TV stations or even bringing up President Bush's less than stellar war record.

Kerry has staked his candidacy on Vietnam. His running mate has publicly invited the country to judge Kerry by listening to his comrades in arms. A lot of them, to Edwards' obvious chagrin, are saying that John Kerry is unfit for command.

If it turns out he made up the story of Christmas in Cambodia, they could very well be right.

Originally published on August 11, 2004

[hollyL]

Come on now Kerry did *volunteer* for Vietnam and he was there, I don't think that is disputed. Maybe he was a wussy...maybe he made a mistake with the date in Cam I don't know...heck maybe he lied about being in Cam. This is typical distraction politics and if the republicans were smart they'd leave this one alone. Trying to pick apart Kerry's military service is a tough hill to tread up when his opponent can't even account for where he was during some of the time. We all know he wasn’t taking fire from the Vietcong. The only thing that irks me is this 'nicey' crap with the democrats now. They should get some whatever it is and go after Bush on this and instead of just taking it the whole time.

[johnb]

You are so wrong.

First, being in Cambodia is not a minor deal. *IF* he were telling the truth someone commited a major crime. That is why he makes the allegation, he says it to indict his superior officers, to smear their reputations, their integrity, and their service to this nation. Why exactly are we supposed to believe anything that SOB says about Cambodia when there are HUNDREDS of men in that Swift Boat Division standing up to say Kerry is lying about the events that occured during his measly 4 months in country.

Second, *HE* made his time in Vietnam a campaign issue. His running mate TOLD the press and people of America to ask Kerry's fellow sailors about his qualities. When we do we find out Kerry is a liar and NOW you Demoncrats wanna complain about the fact that EVERY SINGLE man in Kerry's chain of command is swearing Kerry is lying about what occured in Vietnam.

Third, what Kerry "volunteered" for is to get the hell out of Vietnam after three purple hearts (at least two of which were unmerited) in four months whereas everyone else was their for 12 or they went home sooner on a Medevac stretcher or in a body bag.

Fourth, Kerry did not volunteer for combat duty. He volunteered for duty offshore and was INVOLUNTARILY tranfered into Vietnam. Let's not buy false claims that he raised his hand and volunteered to go.

Fifth, it is hilarious that you people wanna scream about documenting every tit and tat in Bush's military career yet you scream like a slapped Ru Paul when Kerry's military career is examined with equal vigor.

People like you Holly, non vets who know nothing of the military, can't be expected to understand what is going on. Kerry dishonored and smeared every other man in his unit, especially his commanding officers by claiming that the men in Swift Boat Division 11 were engaged in war crimes as a matter of policy. He is saying his commanders ordered the men to rape, pillage, murder, loot, and destroy. How you people can excuse that piece of filth for making such accusations yet pretend to be offended by the men who are defending their honor by standing up to Kerry's lies is amazing.

By the way Holly, Bush didn't go to Vietnam because he "hid" in the Guard. Air Guard squadrons went to Vietnam quite regularly. You non-vets just don't know what the hell you're talking about. Bush didn't go because his unit flew interceptors, not fighters, not bombers. Interceptors had, as their sole mission, interdiction of Soviet long range bombers (which would have been carrying nuclear bombs) prior to entering US and Canadian air space. As a general rule the North Vietnamese Air Force didn't fly too many Tupolev bombers with nuclear payloads near US airspace.

The Donkeycrats nominated a creep. He's your creep now. Enjoy it.

I say this as an Army vet and a current Naval Reservist - I know of NO, not one single GI, who is going to vote for that piece of filth. ((Check that story of the Marines Kerry encountered in a fast food joint last week. They HATED his f'ing guts and were quite adamant about telling the reporters how low they thought Kerry is.)) He smeared his comrades when he came home from Vietnam and ran to a microphone and LIED about their behaviour in Vietnam. You may not think it a big deal, you would if YOU were branded a rapist/murderer/baby killer by a man like Kerry. He slimed them, my fellow veterans, for his own political gain. He makes me sick, viscerally sick. If you people put him in the White House I wil be putting an applicaiton in to separate from the Reserves the day after the election. There is no way in hell I would ever salute that piece of filth. I would anticipate a large number of military members would resign or refuse to re-enlist rather than submit to having to salute Kerry. How in the hell could the American people expect us to salute that piece of filth? Clinton was a mere cad, Kerry is complete betrayal.

I know you probably have no clue why veterans feel so hostile to Kerry. That's fine. That's good in a way, it means we did our job allowing you and others like you the luxury of not having to be drafted and not having to live in a communist nation. On the other hand, you have ZERO comprehension of the commitment, the honor, the sacrifies, and the loyalty GI's have to the nation and their fellow GI's. Nor can you ever, possibly, understand the shock, the betrayal, and the shame of the conduct of people like John Kerry. He lied about his own actions to get medals he didn't deserve, he lied about other men's actions to get into poltiical office, and now he demands the rest of us join him in his lies.

I've spent too many years on active duty, as did my father, my grandfather, 6 uncles, 1 brother in law, and numerous great uncles and other assorted relatives, men who racked up 6 years in Vietnam, men who rode the ships in the Cuban Missile crisis, were wounded in France and Guadalcanal during WWII, and fought in every war this nation had back to the Revolution for you or any other damned Demoncrat to tell me that we should pay no attention to the truth of Kerry's war record. To hell with him and his party.

Few things anger me as profoundly as some horse's *** attacking the memory and honor of the soldiers and sailors of the US Army and Navy.

[Cathy]

Thank you, John for laying this out.

Where can I find this under-reported article?

((Check that story of the Marines Kerry encountered in a fast food joint last week. They HATED his f'ing guts and were quite adamant about telling the reporters how low they thought Kerry is.))

Cathy

[johnb]

http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/25935.htm

DEM'S MARINE MISFIRE
By STEFAN C. FRIEDMAN

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

July 31, 2004 -- SCRANTON, Pa. — John Kerry's heavily hyped cross-country bus tour stumbled out of the blocks yesterday, as a group of Marines publicly dissed the Vietnam War hero in the middle of a crowded restaurant.

Kerry was treating running mate Sen. John Edwards and his wife, Elizabeth, to a Wendy's lunch in Newburgh, N.Y., for their 27th wedding anniversary — an Edwards family tradition — when the candidate approached four Marines and asked them questions.

The Marines — two in uniform and two off-duty — were polite but curt while chatting with Kerry, answering most of his questions with a "yes, sir" or "no, sir."

But they turned downright nasty after the Massachusetts senator thanked them "for their service" and left.

"He imposed on us and I disagree with him coming over here shaking our hands," one Marine said, adding, "I'm 100 percent against [him]."

A sergeant with 10 years of service under his belt said, "I speak for all of us. We think that we are doing the right thing in Iraq," before saying he is to be deployed there in a few weeks and is "eager" to go and serve.

The Marines — all of whom serve at nearby Stewart Air Force Base — wouldn't give their names.

It wasn't an auspicious start to the senators' "Believe in America" bus tour — a 22-state, 43-city tour that will cover roughly 3,500 miles over 15 days in an effort to carry some of their momentum out of the Democratic convention.

But the rest of Day One went smoothly, as massive crowds — including what Kerry said were up to 20,000 in Harrisburg, Pa., — greeted him, Edwards, their families and Ben Affleck at the tour-kickoff event in Boston and at two stops in the Keystone state.

"Ninety-seven days [left in the campaign]; let's make it happen," Kerry told hundreds of bleary-eyed but upbeat supporters who showed up at a 7:30 a.m. rally on the shores of Boston Harbor — less than nine hours after Kerry finished his acceptance speech.

Kerry also employed Paul Revere's famed midnight run and imagery of Bunker Hill to bash President Bush over U.S. intelligence failures.

"These are the places where people dared to stand up and put their lives on the line — to take a risk — for something they believed in very deeply," Kerry said of the Boston neighborhood where he was speaking.

"One if by land, two if by sea, and the message was right. Come to think of it, they had better intelligence than we do today about what's going on," Kerry continued, drawing the loudest applause of the event.

In Harrisburg, Kerry noted that there was more bad news coming out of the financial markets yesterday, with oil prices reaching new highs and economic growth limping along at three percent.

--------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/2711258

July 31, 2004, 9:43AM

'Believe' tour off to a bumpy start
Kerry's 21-state trip gets a mixed reception during its first day out
By JULIE MASON
Copyright 2004 Houston Chronicle
SCRANTON, PA. - The Democratic presidential ticket of John Kerry and John Edwards worked Friday to spread the energy, beginning a national bus tour hours after the Boston convention.


Kerry, whose convention speech emphasized national security and foreign policy, said in an interview with The Associated Press that he would put Osama bin Laden on trial in U.S. courts.

That would ensure the "fastest, surest route" to a murder conviction if the terrorist mastermind is captured while he is president, Kerry said.

"I want him tried for murder in New York City, and in Virginia and in Pennsylvania," where planes hijacked by al-Qaida operatives crashed Sept. 11, 2001, he said.

His "Believe in America" road tour got off to a bumpy start Friday.

A sparse crowd showed up at a morning rally in Boston to begin the 21-state tour. On board were the Kerry family, the Edwards family and an entourage.

Kerry admitted he was dragging. "I am longing to have my head hit a pillow," he said.

Highways were blocked from Boston to Scranton as the campaign's 10 buses and support vehicles lumbered westward.

In Newburg, N.Y., they made an unscheduled stop to celebrate John and Elizabeth Edwards' 27th anniversary.

The couple observed their anniversary tradition of a meal at Wendy's, a nod to their early married days when it was all they could afford.

Kerry joined them inside and spied a table of Marines. But when he struck up a conversation, the Marines answered tersely and expressed irritation.

"He imposed on us and I disagree with him coming over here to shake our hands," said one, who did not give his name.

Later, at a stop in Harrisburg, Pa., Edwards turned his sights on Bush, who had criticized Kerry. "Today, the president went out and spoke for the first time since John spoke (at the convention), and here we go again," Edwards said. "The same old thing, relentless negative attacks on John Kerry.

"They are trying to take this campaign for the highest office in the land down the lowest possible road."

[hollyL]

Johnb - I don't know whether to lov ya or hate ya sometimes!

There is no need for a personal attack on me about this - you don't even know me. Just little background…my father is a retired AF test pilot (A7, F16 amoung others) of 28 years - I was married to Navy sub guy for several years - I actually tried to join the military but some medical issue kept me out. I grew up without a dad around for a lot of the time. I grew up with phone calls after plane crashes, one when I was about 10 the AF called us to say that the plane my father was piloting crashed in OK city not knowing if he was alive or dead for many hours. I know this isn’t like taking bullets in a war but please don’t say I know “nothing about the military”. I'm 100% for mandatory conscription for everyone in this country and I’d be the first in line. I honor and respect the veterans of this country but resent the implication that because "I didn't do to war" somehow I'm just an ahole that doesn't care anything about it - this is just as crazy as saying that because I'm not black I can't support civil rights. Just because I’m a democrat doesn’t mean I hate the military.

My point again (without having to personally attack you my friend) is that Kerry probably told a fish story at least. Maybe he even lied - Bush lied about the WMD to go to war with Iraq although you’d probably disagree with that too. Seems pretty clear to me though…they had them – lie they didn’t have them – truth. Regardless people have flaws; they aren’t perfect – not Bush, not Kerry, not me and not you. I really don't like Kerry and I agree he is a bad pick for the Democratic Party but I don't think people calling him a *ussy is very productive behavior. I also *KNOW* that he never called anyone a 'baby killer'. You say, "Few things anger me as profoundly as some horse's *** attacking the memory and honor of the soldiers and sailors of the US Army and Navy"...isn't that exactly what you are doing to Kerry? He did serve his country didn't he??

I know of at least 1 military person who is voting for Kerry.

[johnb]

When Will Mr. Kerry Apologize?
By Charles Cole (08/11/2004)

As events took a turn for the worse a few months ago in Iraq, President Bush held a press conference at which members of the White House Press Corps, one after another, asked President Bush whether he was “sorry” for his handling of the war in Iraq. Perhaps it’s time for these same journalists to ask another candidate in this year’s election if he might not be willing to apologize for a few things.

Mr. Kerry loves to state, over and over, that he “supports our troops” (in Iraq). So, lets’ examine how well he supported our troops in Southeast Asia after his return from Vietnam. The public record provides a wealth of information in this regard, most notably, his sworn testimony (under oath) before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in April of 1971.

Kerry claimed that “… thousands of men” had been “given the chance to die for the biggest nothing in history”. He added that he and his antiwar veterans were “ashamed” of what they had been “called on to do in Southeast Asia”, and went on to ponder how one can ask a soldier to be “… the last man to die for a mistake?”. The guys in the field must have felt very supported when they learned of Kerry’s statement that: “We wish that a merciful God could wipe away our own memories of that service …” Kerry added that he and his comrades (a noun I purposely use to describe Kerry’s fellow VVAW “activists”) had “one last mission – to search out and destroy the last vestige of this barbaric war”.

Just imagine how our combat soldiers still in Vietnam at that time must have reacted to Kerry’s sworn testimony that our forces had committed “crimes on a day-to-day basis”. If this is his record of “supporting our troops”, then why should the American people trust him to “support our troops” in Iraq, or in future military engagements?

As disgusting as his testimony was, there is one aspect to it which is totally shameful. In his remarks before Congress, Kerry recounted stories of Vietnam veterans who, he claimed, had admitted that they “personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in a fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam…”.

In 1976, Retired Admiral Jeremiah Denton – who spent over seven years as a POW in North Vietnam during the war – wrote a book entitled: "When Hell Was In Session". He documents how every American who fell into North Vietnamese hands immediately demanded the protections of the Geneva Convention. The North Vietnamese answer was always, "You are NOT prisoners of war. You are WAR CRIMINALS! Your own people have admitted this. Therefore, you will be treated as criminals". Although Kerry was not the first to make such outrageous claims, his public testimony in 1971 was delivered at a time when our POWs were still in captivity in North Vietnam. In total disregard for their safety, Kerry testified that “… we are more guilty than any other body of violations of the Geneva Conventions; in the ... torture of prisoners, the killing of prisoners, all accepted policy by many units in South Vietnam”. Kerry’s irresponsible claims served as a de facto validation of the illegitimate North Vietnamese argument that our POWs did not merit the humane treatment required by the Geneva Convention. They used statements made by Kerry and others to justify the brutal torture they inflicted on American POWs in North Vietnam. For his part, Kerry abetted the North Vietnamese in this deception.

Lt. Kerry was trained in the U.S. Military Code of Conduct. He knew, or certainly should have known, the effect of his description of our troops in Southeast Asia as “war criminals”. His reckless disregard for the safety of our troops on the ground, and most especially for the treatment received by our brave servicemen in captivity in North Vietnam, requires that he now, as a candidate for the position of Commander in Chief of all U.S. military forces, explain to the American electorate how he could have made such claims at a time when we had troops in the field and POWs behind the wire. The vaunted Washington press corps should also ask John Kerry if he is now “sorry” for making outrageous claims which were not only subsequently debunked, but which also were used at the time by the North Vietnamese to beat and torture our POWs in violation of the very Geneva Convention which Mr. Kerry claimed to respect so much.

Charles Cole is a retired from the Defense Department and is now a freelance author living in Ohio.

[johnb]

...my father is a retired AF test pilot (A7, F16 amoung others) of 28 years - I was married to Navy sub guy for several years

Either of them should be able to explain to you then that Kerry has a problem. As an officer he had an ethical and a legal obligation to stop the "war crimes" he claimed those around him were committing. He also had an ethical and a legal obligation to report any and all "war crimes" he witnessed, including those he claims to have perpetrated.

He failed to do that. As such Kerry violated his oath and dishonored his commission. He failed to follow orders and he violated the Uniform Code of Military Justice. The things Kerry claims to have been a witness to include felonies.

This is not some "well they're all wrong/why can't we all just get along" nonsense. He has made and has never apologized or retracted his accusations. So....

Kerry is either, guilty of war crimes or he is a liar. There is no third option. Which is it Holly? Did he participate in "war crimes" as he claims or is he lying?

Ask your father what an officer should do if he were to see enlisted men raping, committing murder, pillaging non-combatants property, and other such things. If he doesn't know or if he thinks "nothing" is the right answer he would have just given you a John Kerry answer. That behaviour is, by the UCMJ, crimminal. An officer does not have the option to witness a "war crime" and do nothing about it. Period.

I'm 100% for mandatory conscription for everyone in this country

That has nothing to do with anything. It doesn't make Kerry's predicament any less odious.

"I didn't do to war" somehow I'm just an ahole that doesn't care anything about it - this is just as crazy..

It means you don't understand. I didn't say you didn't care, I said you cannot understand. No non-veteran can. It isn't possible.

Just because I’m a democrat doesn’t mean I hate the military.

Fine. It's a rare bird though, much like the Klansman that doesn't hate Jews or blacks.

My point again (without having to personally attack you my friend) is that Kerry probably told a fish story at least.

BINGO. Yes he did. My point is the CONTENT of his "fish story" is so reprehensible as to put Kerry below pond scum. He accuses his superior officers of establishing a policy of allowing if not inciting the troops to commit "War Crimes" against civilians. He claims a Purple Hearts for a clearly self-inflicted wound that didn't even necessitate a band aid. His action report of the incident where he was given a Bronze Star is so completely at variance with every other contemporary account (no one's memory here, these were reports written at the time of the incidnet) of the incident as to be untrustworthy. Finally, he comes home and through that staged "Winter Soldier" charade he literally compares our troops to Genghis Khan's hordes slaughtering their way through the civilian population of Vietnam.

His fish story is a direct attack and smear on the honor, the integrity, and the service of the men who served in Vietnam. Kerry did something that neither you, nor Bill Clinton, nor any other nonveteran could ever do. He dishonored the military uniform. Those GI's that perpetrated that prison abuse scandal at Abu Ghraib and John Kerry are in the same class. They dishonored the military. One set of perps will face justice the other is your parties nominee for President.

Regardless people have flaws; they aren’t perfect – not Bush, not Kerry, not me and not you.

Do you realize how sick this argument is? Moral equivalency arguments of this nature are not serious rebuttals Holly. Let's stick to the issue and not try to throw smoke grenades around it. Kerry is either a prolific liar or a war crimminal. Whether Bush bought bad intel on Iraqi WMD is irrelevant. Completely irrelevant. This is about Kerry and his heinous smears on Vietnam veterans.

but I don't think people calling him a *ussy is very productive behavior.

I called him no such thing. I will say he is a piece of filth since he is either guilty of War Crimes, as he says, or he is a liar for claiming his commanding officers and fellow troops were War Crimminals. Which one is it Holly?

You say, "Few things anger me as profoundly as some horse's *** attacking the memory and honor of the soldiers and sailors of the US Army and Navy"...isn't that exactly what you are doing to Kerry? He did serve his country didn't he??

No, you see, Kerry claimed he commited "War Crimes" and that his chain of command was behind it and that his fellow troops engaged in "War Crimes" as well.

*IF* he is right, he had a moral and a legal obligation to turn himself and every other perp in so they could be prosecuted under the UCMJ the way Lieutenant Calley was. If he is lying, he is smearing the reptuations, the honor, the integrity, and the memory of all those men who served in Vietnam. He threw down the guantlet Holly. Let's get an answer. Maybe he can tell us why he never turned himself in for commiting "War Crimes" and why did he never refer charges against anyone else for engaging in "War Crimes"?

It wouldn't be so sickening if he wasn't making his measly four months in Vietnam the centerpiece of his campaign.

I know of at least 1 military person who is voting for Kerry.

There were Jews working for the SS in Auschwitz as well so I'm not surprised there'd be some confused veterans lining up to help out Kerry. They get the benefit of the doubt, they must not be fully aware of what he has done.

[hollyL]

This is not some "well they're all wrong/why can't we all just get along" nonsense. He has made and has never apologized or retracted his accusations. So....
Untrue - He did retract parts of his statement on Jan. 17 2004. Meet the Press. "I don't stand by the genocide. I think those were the words of an angry young man. But I do stand by the description...But I stand by the rest of what happened over there...I think our soldiers served as nobly, on the whole, as in any war, and people need to understand that. There were great sacrifices, great contributions. And they came back to a country that didn't thank the veteran, that didn't-I mean, everything that the veteran gained in the ensuing years, Agent Orange recognition, post-Vietnam stress syndrome recognition, the extension of the G.I. Bill, you know, improvement of the V.A. hospitals, all came from Vietnam veterans themselves fighting for it. Indeed, even the memorial in Washington came from that."


Kerry is either, guilty of war crimes or he is a liar. There is no third option. Which is it Holly? Did he participate in "war crimes" as he claims or is he lying?
Sound like a maybe to me. I’m not an expert on Military law so if it’s true maybe you are right – I don’t know. (Kerry same Meet the Press): "There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones...I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals."


I'm 100% for mandatory conscription for everyone in this country. That has nothing to do with anything. It doesn't make Kerry's predicament any less odious.
Neither does my father being in the AF really. I just thought it might add to the fact that I'm not Ms. hate the military like I was inaccurately being portrayed.


Do you realize how sick this argument is? Moral equivalency arguments of this nature are not serious rebuttals Holly. Let's stick to the issue and not try to throw smoke grenades around it. Kerry is either a prolific liar or a war criminal. Whether Bush bought bad intel on Iraqi WMD is irrelevant. Completely irrelevant. This is about Kerry and his heinous smears on Vietnam veterans..
Agreed - but if you are going to chastise Kerry for lying you should apply this standard equally to all candidates including Bush. So let’s talk about that...

Bush loves the military?

Bush Lie:
“Any time we put our troops into harm's way, you must have the best training, the best equipment, the best possible pay.” [Source: White House Web site]

Fact:
"The administration announced that on Oct. 1 it wants to roll back recent modest increases in monthly imminent-danger pay (from $225 to $150) and family-separation allowance (from $250 to $100) for troops getting shot at in combat zones.” - Army Times, 6/30/03

Bush lie:

Quote/Claim:
“Your lives can be changed in a moment with the sudden call to duty. I want to thank you for your willingness to heed that important call, and I want to thank your families. I want to thank your sons, daughters, husbands and wives who share in your sacrifice, who are willing to sacrifice for our country and who stand behind you.” [Source: White House Web site]

Fact:
Less than 2 weeks after the President made these comments, “the Bush administration announced its formal opposition to a proposal to give National Guard and Reserve members access to the Pentagon's health-insurance system, jeopardizing the plan's future and angering supporters. A recent General Accounting Office report estimated that one of every five Guard members has no health insurance.” - Gannett News Service, 10/23/03

Bush lie:
“I want to make sure the housing is the best possible for our military families.” [Source: White House Web site]

Fact:
The President's 2004 budget proposes a $1.5 billion reduction in funds to military family housing/medical facilities – a 14% cut. - Bush FY 2004 Budget

Quote/Claim:
"I did show up in Alabama." [Source: Meet the Press transcript]

Fact:
His unit commander doesn't believe the President showed up for duty. The Boston Globe reports that Bush's assigned unit commander, William Turnipseed, and his administrative officer, Kenneth K. Lott, do not believe that Bush reported. In an interview Turnipseed said, "Had he reported in, I would have had some recall, and I do not. I had been in Texas, done my flight training there. If we had had a first lieutenant from Texas, I would have remembered." - Boston Globe, 5/23/00

So since you are so offended by a possible lie I guess you are going to have to vote for Nader then right? :wink:

[johnb]

Holly,

You're no longer even funny. Do you understand what you are saying?

Bush Lie:
“Any time we put our troops into harm's way, you must have the best training, the best equipment, the best possible pay.” [Source: White House Web site]

Fact:
"The administration announced that on Oct. 1 it wants to roll back recent modest increases in monthly imminent-danger pay (from $225 to $150) and family-separation allowance (from $250 to $100) for troops getting shot at in combat zones.” - Army Times, 6/30/03

First, nice cut'n'paste, get if off the Kerry for prez site or a DNC site?

Second, that isn't a lie. If you think Bush's statement constitutes a lie I can see why you are a Donkeycrat. Matters of military pay and benefits are policy matters. They are typically proposed by the President and implemented in the budget by the Congress. You have no idea what that is about or the context it occured. You're grasping at straws trying to cover for a self confessed War Crimminal Holly. Any imagined policy differences you may have with Bush has NOTHING to do with the fact that your boy Kerry is a self-confessed War Crimminal. He also dishonored his commission and the service of innumerable Vietnam Veterans by his filthy comments comparing them to murderous barbarians. He smeared men for whom he is unfit to untie their boots. You think it's a game then to go off on wild tangents arguing over budget or policy matter trying to draw attention away from Kerry's despicable behaviour by nit picking Bush on things you don't even understand. Kerry's foul conduct has NOTHING to do with Bush, if you cannot contain the discussion of Kerry's conduct to Kerry's conduct and the relevant details you are exposing yourself to be nothing more than a desperate partisan, willing to excuse any behaviour if the perp is a Donkeycrat.

I suppose the fact that Donkeycrat Senator Robert Byrd is/was a long time Klan member/supporter is now comparable to some minor public policy disagreement you may have with George Bush huh?

You loose Holly.

[johnb]

Quote:
This is not some "well they're all wrong/why can't we all just get along" nonsense. He has made and has never apologized or retracted his accusations. So....

Untrue - He did retract parts of his statement on Jan. 17 2004. Meet the Press. "I don't stand by the genocide. I think those were the words of an angry young man. But I do stand by the description...But I stand by the rest of what happened over there...

Thanks for that clarification Hollyl. Unfortunately for you, the issue of "genocide" was never brought up. He accused his commanding officer and he men above him of establishing a policy where these alleged "war crimes" were tolerated if not incited. He did NOT retract that. He accused the US troops of being rapists, murderers, and barbarians comparable to Genghis Khan. He did NOT retract that. He submitted falsified incident reports in order to gain a purple heart and a bronze star. He did NOT apologize for that.

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Kerry is either, guilty of war crimes or he is a liar. There is no third option. Which is it Holly? Did he participate in "war crimes" as he claims or is he lying?

Sound like a maybe to me.

That's because you allow your hatred of Bush to compromise your judgement. You and I and every other reasonable adult knows the answer to that question Holly.

(Kerry same Meet the Press): "There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones...I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down.

Why do you donkeycrats find it so easy to smear the names, the integrity, the honor, and the professionalism of innumerable military officers and men by even taking Kerry's smear seriously? *IF* Kerry had seen ANY "atrocity", as a United States Naval officer he had a duty to step in and stop it, to report it, and to ensure the men under his command obeyed the law. His failure is dereliciton of duty at best. Either that, or he lied and he saw nothing of the sort. It's one or the other Holly.

And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals."

He just doesn't stop does he? *IF* he truly believes that why did he do NOTHING? Who is he talking about Holly and why do you Donkeycrats demand these men stand by and say nothing while Kerry smears them?

Neither does my father being in the AF really. I just thought it might add to the fact that I'm not Ms. hate the military like I was inaccurately being portrayed.

Hate? Maybe not, grossly misunderstands yes.

[johnb]

Holly, et al, you should not have wasted your time defending Kerry's hateful claims, they're a work in progress subject to revision at any moment politically necesary:

==============================================

XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX THU AUG 12, 2004 21:01:21 ET XXXXX

JANUARY -- NOT CHRISTMAS -- KERRY IN CAMBODIA

**Exclusive**

TOUR OF DUTY author and John Kerry historian Doug Brinkley is rushing a piece for the NEW YORKER: to set-the-record-straight on Kerry's Christmas in Cambodia tale, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned.

Kerry has turned to author Brinkley for a "modification" after it was exposed that Kerry was not in Cambodia during Christmas of 1968, as he once claimed from the Senate floor.

The Brinkley piece for the NEW YORKER will now say that Kerry was not in Cambodia during Christmas, but rather in January, publishing sources tell DRUDGE.

MORE

Since the early 1970s, Kerry has spoken and written of how he was illegally ordered to enter Cambodia. Kerry mentioned it in the floor of the Senate in 1986 when he charged that President Reagan’s actions in Central America were leading the U.S. in another Vietnam. Here’s what he said as excerpted from the new book, UNFIT FOR COMMAND:

"I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by the Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared--seared--in me."

John O’Neil’s, author of UNFIT FOR COMMAND, comments on the “clarification:”

“John Kerry describes Christmas Eve in Cambodia as a critical turning point in his life. We now know that his story is completely false. My question is how many people do you know have invented a turning point, one that is seared in his memory? While it makes sense for John Kerry to come clean about the Cambodia story, it is one of several tales that the Kerry campaign will have to face and clarify.”

“By claiming we were engaged in a war crime and crossing international borders, John Kerry damaged the credibility of all the commanding officers above him and insulted the sailors who served with him,” said John O’Neill, member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.”