Our City Council: the dumbest people money can buy

[johnb]

Dear Cary Town Council,

Just when it seems as if the members of the City Council have pulled a boneheaded stunt of such magnitude that sober observers conclude it couldn't get worse, it gets worse.

You're robbing money from the property owners of Cary to subsidize YOUR Regency Park white elephant, YOUR "Skate Park", and now, even when you tell the public you're not blowing our money on another ignorant pork barrell project you do, except, you're all not bright enough to figure out what you just did.

A special interest group, the Cary Dog Owner's club (a group of brigands out to raid the public treasury - I have a dog and I'm not demanding other people pay to build me an off leash dog walking facility as these crimminals are) is sending the following email all over Cary. They pulled a fast one on you dolts, I don't expect Marla to catch on but the rest of you should be able to figure it out. They claim you people agreed to give them the cash for their park. Now, either their leadership is lying or their leadership has a poker face and is trying to bully the city council (our money is lost) into giving them the cash, or you people are dumber than I tell people you are and you agreed to give them the cash.

Which is it?

We can't spend money on roads yet you chuckleheads seriously contemplate putting money into a facility that is going to be a liability nightmare. The first time some damned pit pull hops a fence and mauls a child at that park we, the property owners, are going to get sued senseless because of your stupidity.

You folks clearly don't think before voting.

John Barbara



>Dear Ms Henderson and members of the Cary Town
>Council,

>I would like to thank you for approving the
>residents' request for funding
>for a dog park facility at North Cary Park.
>
>I helped start the Cary Dog Park Club as the
>group's webmaster in June, 2002. My motivation
>to get involved were my two buddies, Bailey
>and Fancy.

>While Fancy sadly did not live to enjoy a
>wonderful dog park in Cary, our 8 year old
>Bailey has been loving the Dog Park for a
>Day events that were hosted by the CDPC and
>the Town of Cary and will take full advantage
>of Cary's first public offleash dog park as
>soon as it is built.

>Bailey, his friends, my family and I all hope
>that, with the funds appropriated, the waiting
>will soon be over and we can look forward to a
>ceremonial "leash cutting" by the end of 2004.
>I know the logistics of any construction project
>are not trivial and the town will insist on a
>first class facility similar in quality and
>appeal to the many beautiful and diverse
>playground and sports facilities available
>to Cary residents. We have patiently and
>diligently worked with the Town of Cary for
>over two years to provide education and
>consulting, build understanding and awareness,
>and demonstrate strong community support.
>We must now trust that the elected officials
>and staff will feel the same anticipation,
>dedication and fervor to see the project to >completion.

>Thank you again for pushing our cause past
>this major milestone. With the major obstacles
>moved aside, we can only request that you
>please maintain the momentum to complete the
>North Cary Park offleash dog park without
>delay.

>Thank you so much for all your efforts to make
>Cary a great place to live!

[Cathy]

Geeeeeezzzzzzzzz....

After reading that "Dogs are people, too" email, it looks to be certain that there are some marbles rolling around loose out there on both sides of this effort to find things to spend the people's money on.

Cathy

[hollyL]

I think this was funded at least in plan a long time ago and was put in the master park plan back in 2003.
http://www.townofcary.org/depts/budget/fy2005/approved/aob/cibcip/ciboverview.pdf

From what I understand they (Cary Dog Park club http://www.carydogparkclub.org) has/will funded a signficant portion of the park.

I take my dogs to the dog park in Raleigh frequently and find it quite pleasant. People are friendly, pick up after their dogs and control them as appropriate. I have never seen anything different. There are always many people at the Raleigh dog park. I drive by several parks each day in Cary on my way to work and 99% of the time they are completely empty. Dog parks are used frequently by us crazy "dogs are people too" people. I'd bet that the dog park gets used more than a vast majority of all the other parks. I have been to several of the dog days at Bond park sponsored by the Cary Dog Park Club. At some of them there were over 50 people there.

I have been to a park in Cary maybe 3 times in the last 3 years and not be choice really. There is nothing for me to do there. I don't have kids, I don't play tennis etc. Why should the town of Cary pay for people to play tennis but not for people to play outdoors with their dogs? Why should I pay for a bunch of children's playground equiptment when I don't even have kids? If they want to fund tennis courts and swing sets why not a dog park? I'm a fair person though pull the funding for all the swingsets and slides and I'd say no fair on the dog park, but just because you don't personally like the idea of a dog park doesn't mean I should like tennis. You can't have it both ways.

[kellyc]

Holly,

I have tried fighting this battle myself. I have found is one of those issues where people either get it or they dont.

Kelly

[Wuptdo]

I attempted to get the council to add this to the North Cary Park:

http://www.dockdogs.com/home.html

However, I will not give up the fight (next year). What Cary needs is a 1st class venue for this type of Dog event. With the AKC Headquaters in Raleigh, and with their help we can make Cary a premeir site for dog training/sports in the country. All it will take is money (hotel tax money) and a political will to make it so!

Having done dog shows and events for several years, let me assure you this - it is not a "low-end" sport. There is much money invested in dogs and their sports. Imagine top sporting dogs and their masters coming to Cary in their $300,000 motor coaches and spending money here in Cary. It will be a missed opportunity for Cary if we don't do this. (Wup's Holy Grail - hopefully with Johnb support :wink: ).

If put to a vote to spend $5 million dollars on an ultimate dog facility (that will make money) vice another $5 million dollar park complex (that will drain taxpayers money); the public will go for dogs!

And just thinking out loud - the SAS soccer park with an additional of a pool facility for "Dock Dogs" would be prefect venue for conversion. :D

Wuptdo B-)

Remember, it is not just for the dogs, it is for the children, all the children of Cary as well!

[hollyL]

Actually this could be great idea! Not sure about the throwing dead fowl part though :( Anyway...this is something that Ral/Dur/CH doesn't have unlike an art museum, theater etc. I've been to some of the dog shows and those people fit right in Cary - dogs cost thousands of dollars, spending $1000 on a stupid dog collar. If you watch 'Best in Show' the people are really that crazy. This is brilliant!

Now I have no motive here because my dogs are either too old, handicap, dumb and/or disobideint to ever get in a dog show :-D

To save JohnB some time I've wrote a reply for him to me :wink:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Holly,

You are a jackass. You are probably as dumb as your dogs except you are an alcholic too which makes you dumber. This idea is so stupid you could probably be grand boobah of Cary afterall. You probably buy dumb sweaters for your dogs and color coordinate their collars and their leashes. You people are all dogdummycrats. You are probably a vegetarian too, take your dogs to tree huggings and let them sleep in your bed - you probably have fleas too.

Your friend,
Johnb

[Wuptdo]

ROFL :lol: :lol: !

thanks, Holly, you made my day!

Wuptdo B-)

[johnb]

Holly,

If dog fanciers are truly that profligate with their pets why is it that they refuse to buy and operate their own facility? Why do they insist the public buy for them the thing they refuse to purchase for themselves (adequate space to exercise their animals)?

How "humane" is any dog owner that buys a dog KNOWING they lack the space to adequately provide for the dog's exercise in a fashion they claim the dog needs?

In decent society we would call the dog's exercise space it's owners backyard. Because someone with no yard or a postage stamp yard wants a Great Dane that does not impose an obligation on the rest of society to buy them a place to exercise their toy. Their toy, their issue.

Since they insist on making their dog purchasing behaviour the public's business, the public should insist on being involved in the whole purchase, ie, if you don't have a fenced backyard for your dog you shouldn't be allowed to own one. Fair? Of course not, but neither is the reverse, buying a dog then demanding the city rob the property owners of Cary to buy a leash free park for dog owners.

[johnb]

Holly,

From what I understand they (Cary Dog Park club http://www.carydogparkclub.org) has/will funded a signficant portion of the park.

Why not have them fund it all? It is their special interest groups project, no one else's. The BS told to the public initially was that all they would get is space from the city and they'd handle the rest. That didn't last too long. Much like Regency would be self-sustaining and the Skate Park would be self sustaining and on and on. The financial fairy tales told by groups hitting up the city for handouts follow a pretty predictable formula.

1-A group is created.

2-The group presses the city council for funding because they "represent" X number of people.

3-The group claims it's goals won't cost the city "much" if anything and the group will fund the rest then take over the sustaining funding.

4-The group gets it's initial funding from the city.

5-The group bails leaving the city on the hook for everything.

Tennis Park, Skate Park, Soccer Stadium, soon to add the Aquatics Palace to the list. It doesn't end and why would it? Our city council keeps falling for the same shuck and jive repetitively. One definition of insanity is doing the same thing repetitively and expecting a different result each time. Maybe our Council is collectively insane.

It might be worthwhile to form a joke "committee" with totally falsified lists of members to push the city to fund some outlandish venue, a munincipal golf course or shooting range and see how seriously these people take it. The danger is they don't seem to think clearly and would fall for a deliberate joke to the point of committing the city to outrageous expenditures before the beans were spilled.

There is no requirement in law or in common sense that the city pay for anyone's entertainment. That includes yahoos who "speak" for their dogs in emails..

Your email is ridiculous Holly, I'm not their friend. :evil:

[Cathy]

I think this was funded at least in plan a long time ago and was put in the master park plan back in 2003.
http://www.townofcary.org/depts/budget/fy2005/approved/aob/cibcip/ciboverview.pdf

From what I understand they (Cary Dog Park club http://www.carydogparkclub.org) has/will funded a signficant portion of the park.

I take my dogs to the dog park in Raleigh frequently and find it quite pleasant. People are friendly, pick up after their dogs and control them as appropriate. I have never seen anything different. There are always many people at the Raleigh dog park. I drive by several parks each day in Cary on my way to work and 99% of the time they are completely empty. Dog parks are used frequently by us crazy "dogs are people too" people. I'd bet that the dog park gets used more than a vast majority of all the other parks. I have been to several of the dog days at Bond park sponsored by the Cary Dog Park Club. At some of them there were over 50 people there.

I have been to a park in Cary maybe 3 times in the last 3 years and not be choice really. There is nothing for me to do there. I don't have kids, I don't play tennis etc. Why should the town of Cary pay for people to play tennis but not for people to play outdoors with their dogs? Why should I pay for a bunch of children's playground equiptment when I don't even have kids? If they want to fund tennis courts and swing sets why not a dog park? I'm a fair person though pull the funding for all the swingsets and slides and I'd say no fair on the dog park, but just because you don't personally like the idea of a dog park doesn't mean I should like tennis. You can't have it both ways.

Holly

I have pets and I love them very much. I view them as expressive creatures that can communicate and deserve considerate interaction and compassion from me. Yet I would NEVER write to a Public Official,_ in what appears to be all seriousness,_ that my pets deserve the same public subsidies for their happiness that human beings are getting!

Where does "it" (tax subsidized amenities) stop??

"What's good for the dog is good for the cat."
And let's not forget about all the parrot owners either.
Maybe my cat should have a tax funded habitat that housebound cats can run around in safely and socialize with other cats. This would be the only logical next step for all of the environmentally conscious cat owners who don't let their cats outside to terrorize and decimate the wildlife.
And how wonderful would it be if I could take my three parrots to a public aviary where they could fly free in an environment safe from predators and unintentional escape into the wild?

(Lord__I'm actually afraid that I may be giving some people ideas here)others _not you, Holly

And I'm all for the idea that things like tennis, swimming, skateboarding, and other sports should be private ventures.
I don't think that providing playgrounds for human children can be compared to providing play facilities for dogs and pets.
Call me a meany, but it isn't the same.

Cathy

[hollyL]

Holly,
Why do they insist the public uy for them the thing they refuse to purchase for themselves (adequate space to exercise their animals)?

How "humane" is any dog owner that buys a dog KNOWING they lack the space to adequately provide for the dog's exercise in a fashion they claim the dog needs?

OK...I'm not going any futher on this until I understand one thing. Do you think the city should fund ANY parks&rec? If you don't think they should fund any, you are true to your point. I salute you and will shut up about it. If they should fund other "recreation" and not others, they you're logic is a full of holes.

[hollyL]

I have pets and I love them very much. I view them as expressive creatures that can communicate and deserve considerate interaction and compassion from me. Yet I would NEVER write to a Public Official,_ in what appears to be all seriousness,_ that my pets deserve the same public subsidies for their happiness that human beings are getting!

Where does "it" (tax subsidized amenities) stop??
Cathy

Cathy,

People don't go dump their dogs their and leave. They are actually very enjoyable for people too. People are so friendly, mostly because we all have something in common - our dogs - to talk about. This park is really as much for people as for the dogs. I'd much rather go and hang out with some people and their dogs then stand at the skate park. We all talk and play catch etc. with the dogs. It's quite fun.

My only point is one of fairness really...If the town is going to furish 'recreation' via tax dollars to a group of people who skate...or a group of people that play tennis why is that so different than a group of people who's hobby is playing with their dog? I don't think it is. So I'd say the answer is either stop ALL with the "special interest" funding of all parks (skateboards, tennis, baseball, dogs, socceer) or you have to include everyone. I frankly can't say that I know exactly how I feel about that either way. I'd bet on thing though...they are more people in Cary who would use the dog park (the Cary Dogpark Club has more than 400 memebers) than the skate park. :wink:

[Wuptdo]

Kathy,

Your birds can fly free. They deserve it and it very affordable. See below:

http://www.atlantco.com/pool.htm

However, I am very serious about the "dockdog park." I would like to thank John for how to get this organized and through council. And yes, it probably will loose money for several years, but after that, sporting dog events will be in Cary, just like Westismester Dog Show is to Madison Square Garden. The big difference being is that caviar and salmon are featured in NYC, while here it will be Carolina Bar-B-Que. This facility will add another lite for the "City on the Hill."

Wuptdo B-)

[Cathy]

Kathy,

Your birds can fly free. They deserve it and it very affordable. See below:

http://www.atlantco.com/pool.htm

However, I am very serious about the "dockdog park." I would like to thank John for how to get this organized and through council. And yes, it probably will loose money for several years, but after that, sporting dog events will be in Cary, just like Westismester Dog Show is to Madison Square Garden. The big difference being is that caviar and salmon are featured in NYC, while here it will be Carolina Bar-B-Que. This facility will add another lite for the "City on the Hill."

Wuptdo B-)

Thanks Wup!
I've actually seen these in Florida years ago when I was helping to rmodel my brother-in-law's condo. I did think of how nice that would be for my birdies. I wish I could afford to do it. Someday..........
..........but wait!_I know what I can do! I'll buy it on credit and then force my NEIGHBORS to pay for it because it will be such an asset to all who live near me!

Cathy

[johnb]

My only point is one of fairness really...

Why do you assume "fairness" has an objective definition? Why is it "fair" for the Cary Dog Club, or any other special interest group, to demand money from anyone else's wallet for their recreation? Who deemed that "fair"? Why isn't it "fair" for the people of Cary to keep their own damned money and spend it on their own forms of recreation rather than have it confiscated in the form of property taxes and used for the few members of the Cary Dog Club? When did theft by government become "fair"?

How about "fair" being defined as something slightly less self-serving on the part of the Cary Dog Club? Using repeated demands for "fairness" (something that can never be attained since there is no definition of "fair" that everyone will agree on) means only more and more appetites getting tax money shovelled down more bottomless pits.

...they are more people in Cary who would use the dog park (the Cary Dogpark Club has more than 400 memebers) than the skate park.

So the way to handle this is to spend more and more tax money on more outlandish schemes? Skate Park should have been a lesson, not a model. It should have showed everyone the foolishness of shoveling money into a narrow special interest that has minimal revenue generating capacity but near unlimited potential for liability. The doggie park is no different. It won't "pay for itself", the people who want it won't pay for it themselves, and it opens the city to the prospect of dangerous lawsuits. The first time a pit bull hops a fence and mauls and possibly kills a child all we will hear from the parents is their lawsuit is about "fairness". And of course, we, the taxpayers, will deserve to be legally skewered and roasted for allowing this monstrosity to be built on public land. There will be no defense. The city has a strict leash law to control animals, protect the public safety, and keep the animals safe. Now the city is going to fund an exception to the animal control laws. It will only be "fair" for the city to be legally roasted in a civil suit for millions. It will be "our" fault.

OK...I'm not going any futher on this until I understand one thing. Do you think the city should fund ANY parks&rec?

Yes and no. The city has an interest in preserving undeveloped land. The city has no interest in running rec leagues. If the question is something specific, say the city baseball league, no. The city rec league is a joke. Kids that want to play competitive baseball or softball have to leave Cary and go to places such as Raleigh or Garner where private, competitive leagues and AAU teams exist. The city should get out of the business of running the leagues. Little League, the most successful youth sports league in America, is almost always run as a private/non-governmental affair. Without a city league Cary parks could host recreational leagues and competitive leagues. That would give more options to more of the youth of Cary. It's no different than schools really, the best schools are usually private. For a reason. Government can accomodate "everyone" only by making a product of minimal value available. I am against a lot of what the city does in that department. The city should create the parks as platforms people can use for sports/recreation and let private individuals/groups run their own events, consistant with the law and public safety. Get rid of the city baseball league and you'd have multiple offerings available: Little League, AAU teams, Dixie Youth Baseball, etc... Governmental activity has a way of sucking all the oxygen out of the room.

As for the availability, dogs are not people Holly. Adults should not engage in anthropromorphism and throw around stupid one lines, "Rover loves the city council for building the Doggie Park." "Rover" is a damned dog, not a human being. Dogs are not taxpayers or citizens. Dogs are the equivalent of baseball mits. They are not a concern to the city. The facilities the city builds are for people. Not dogs. Dogs can be walked in city parks now. They just have to be restrained. If the owners don't like it they can keep their dogs at home where they can run free in a fenced in yard or behind an electric fence. What is offensive here is the fact that dog owners buy animals they don't have the means to care for properly and demand the public ante up to the bar and take care of the tab for them. That is noxious.

If they should fund other "recreation" and not others, they you're logic is a full of holes.

Tax money should be spent only for public needs, not the demands of special interest groups who want the city to fund their hobby. Do golfers have some right to a city funded golf course? What if they don't want to pay the greens fees? How is that "fair"? If the standard used to justify public tax revenues being used for private recreation we're in for a huge increase in city expenditures, there is simply no end to the demands. If one group gets the public to pay for their hobby all have to have the same access to the public treasury. After all, it's only "fair".

[johnb]

Wupster:

However, I am very serious about the "dockdog park." I would like to thank John for how to get this organized and through council.

The scary thing is, it's so outlandish and expensive, the city council probably could be goaded into taking it seriously. Now if you write an email to the city council speaking for a parrot who would "love" the council for building it a place to fly free without restraint the deal would be cinched Wup.

John

...after all....it's only "fair"

[hollyL]

building it a place to fly free without restraint the deal would be cinched Wup.

John

...after all....it's only "fair"

See...now you are getting it! My boyfriend has just requested a hamster park! It would be full of tunnels, little balls so they could roll around and other roley poley balls! YEAH!

[Brent]

I still want my fish park. Fish off-leash.

[Wuptdo]

Johnb - not only is it 'fair,' don't forget the children as well. :grin:

JohnB - Man for the most part I agree with you. However, I pay in, pay in, and pay in, when do I get mine 2 cents back. However, I didn't take the TC down the slippery slope to spending for these various projects. For instance, I understand from "kids" in the know, that the skatepark is great for beginners, but no challenge for the more advanced kids. They made it too safe. Or as your scouts would say, it's lame.

However, I think I know why the TC has spent so much money of these type of projects. Primarily to make the town more attractive to business and potential homebuyers. This in turn will help keep up property values and ensure a stable tax base (yes, I know for more spending). Why do they have to do this? Let's go back a little ways in history. Once upon a time, Cary had the best public schools in Wake County. However, very evil people like Ray Stevens, Bill Flecther and Bill "The Racist" McNeal decided that it wasn't "fair" that Cary had such good schools. Why did they have good schools and the rest of the county was either failing or average. Simple - parents that cared about their children and supported their local schools. Teachers work harder knowing that the parents care, therefore, the good teachers stayed in Cary. However, that wasn't "fair" to the F&R children because their parent(s) were (insert verb here). So the School Board decided to punish Cary (and Apex too). They won't build any more schools in Cary, and then to really piss parents off, they bused children out of Cary, and bused in F&R children for various reasons. The TC was powerless to stop this. Therefore in order for Cary to maintain its status as a great place to live, thus began all the new parks and things. WCPSS achieve its goal of not having any outstanding schools because if was now fair to the F&R kids. I could on about all the private schools and such, but you know the rest of the story......

Cathy - go ahead and build the enclosure. Since you are not in the TOC you then charge admission from other birds owners. You should have it payed off in no time. You know the saying "Build it, and they will come!" :wink:

Wuptdo B-)

[johnb]

Simple - parents that cared about their children and supported their local schools.

Goes back to the point that government cannot offer excellence, only mediocrity to everyone. Hence the rise of private schools and home schooling in the city of Cary.

After thinking about this issue a bit more I came to the conclusion that the city should never build anything where part of the equation is "It will pay for itself." These things never pan out because government employees are not private business owners. They don't understand how that works. If they did they'd be in business for themselves. These facilities, whether major league baseball stadiums, convention centers, or concert venues don't "pay for themselves". Gov't, not being a private business can't make them be self-sustaining. If such things could be done profitably some private investor or public corporation would build the darn thing and franchise it. They don't because negative margins tend to make for a short life cycle.

Gov't should build things that are actually needed by the broad population. Politicians, being what they are, use projects like this to buy people's votes, nothing more. We should call a duck a duck. This doggie park is going to be built so certain council critters can buy the votes of the interested party, the Cary Dog Club. No one is going to vote or not vote for any council critter if the city were to buy a new fire truck for station 2.
This is that level of gov't corruption that falls under the heading of prejudicially disbursing government funds.

*IF* the city government had as a public policy goal that the kids in Cary need to learn to swim there is a way to do that quite effectively. They won't do it though. Build a pool on the grounds of Cary HS. Swimming class becomes a part of gym class. The Cary HS athletic director controls the pool after it is deeded to the WCPSS. That'll never happen though because the Cary Swim Club and the Triangle Swim Club wouldn't get their pools. The kids at Cary HS would have a pool and the Cary HS swimming and diving team would have a venue for competitive events. HOWEVER, the goal is to give the Cary Swim Club and the Triangle Swim Club a pool at govenrment expense. Why should the kids whose parents can afford the $500 or $1000 or whatever the parental assesment is every year be given a pool at government expense when the rest of the kids in Cary would not benefit?

Float that idea at the Cary City Council and see how quickly the cobras strike.

[Brent]

John,

The dog park funding was approved in the FY '05 budget. As I recall, no one spoke against it. It apparently was deemed more important, along with a parking deck for Town staff, water squirters at Ritter Park and lighted pipe art at Town Hall than roads, fire stations and SROs. :evil:

I said from day one that the dog park club should have said, "Hey, we've got 400 members. If each member chips in $100, we're good to go". Instead, they said "Hey, we've got 400 members. Let's get the taxpayers to pony up some money for us". And if I recall correctly, they spent 2 or 3 years making their case...time enough for quite a few bake sales, I would think.

It's for the puppies.

[Brent]

Now taking applications for membership in the Cary Fish Park Club.

It's for the tetras.

[Wuptdo]

Johnb - when you are taking about the "pool center" you are preaching to the choir. I think I was the only person to speak out against the project for the last several years in the "Cary News." Thus the hateful phone calls and mail. But now that I have seen who is on the board of directors of the Cary Swim Club, I now know who the enemy is.

http://www.caryswimclub.org/

Take a few minutes and read their budget, minutes, and their membership "cap." A family my size will pay about $1200 per year. I think we were paying about $800 per year at the YMCA. Also, about $420 (x 202) per household per year goes to pool maintence in our 'hood.' What is really strange is that we payed about $1300 per kid to attend "White Tiger" Gym (lessons included), and it is a privately built facility.

However, John we must factor in the will of the people. 5900 hundred of your neighbors wants a pool in Cary. Now the pool they want is your typical average summer "spash pool." Miss Marla and "friends" want a pool center. After reviewing the data from the $60,000 pool consulant I have concluded the best route to go is the full blown Pool Park including water slides (like Emerald Point in Greensboro). Yes, a public/private thing, but we charge admission (lower for Cary residents) and watch the revenue flow in. This pool park will not have a competative swimming area. And for about $500,000 more they can add a "dockdog" facility as well. Image watching ESPN and seeing panning shots of Cary on national TV. One can only dream!

Wuptdo B-)

[/i]

[johnb]

It apparently was deemed more important, along with a parking deck for Town staff, water squirters at Ritter Park and lighted pipe art at Town Hall than roads, fire stations and SROs.

Isn't it funny Brent how public safety now takes a back seat to a doggie park? It really drives home the adage that roads, utilities, and public safety aren't effective ways to buy votes. They're not "sexy" to anyone, but Steve of course. Now we get what is it $50,000? You may be right it might 'only' be $40,000 blown so that the various council critters can appease/buy the votes of the members of the Cary Dog Club.

I said from day one that the dog park club should have said, "Hey, we've got 400 members. If each member chips in $100, we're good to go".

For shame my good man! What is the use of that pile of loot at city hall if not to be pillaged? That's where you can really tell what value people place on things. If they're not willing to get off their arse's and do the work themselves it clearly is not a priority for them, no matter what they say. Unless, one concludes that what they like is looting the public treasury and compelling their neighbors to pay for their entertainment choices.

Instead, they said "Hey, we've got 400 members. Let's get the taxpayers to pony up some money for us". And if I recall correctly, they spent 2 or 3 years making their case...time enough for quite a few bake sales, I would think.

Maybe we should start a religion that considers dog unclean and the embodiment of evil in the world. Funding the doggie park would be offensive to our religion and a frivolous government endorsement of the same. :twisted: After all, we have a Constitutional right to not have our delicate sensibilities offended don't we?

john

[johnb]

Wup,

They want a facility with a roof overhead and that is a goal I hope they achieve, on their own nickle. The fact that a minority of voters want to compel all property owners to fund a facility a minority of city residents could use is nothing but pure greed.

The Swim Club would be one of my favorite groups of parents *if* they kept their financial affairs to themselves and left me and the rest of Cary out of it. Why is it some people get up and do the things for the causes they care about and others organize only to raid the public treasury? When did theft by government become a public virtue?

[hollyL]

John,

I said from day one that the dog park club should have said, "Hey, we've got 400 members. If each member chips in $100, we're good to go". Instead, they said "Hey, we've got 400 members. Let's get the taxpayers to pony up some money for us". And if I recall correctly, they spent 2 or 3 years making their case...time enough for quite a few bake sales, I would think.

It's for the puppies.

Yes - they have been working on it for several years. I've been to several of their events and remember the cost was somewhere between $5 - $10 per dog. I bet they cleared at least $750 on one I was at. They are 501(c)3 anyway so I just sent an email to them asking for their finanicals because I am curious now.

Just an FYI...there is a cool website http://www.guidestar.org/ that shows finanicals of almost all nonprofits including their tax returns :-D

[Wuptdo]

JohnB wrote:


Why is it some people get up and do the things for the causes they care about and others organize only to raid the public treasury? When did theft by government become a public virtue?


Three things John:

1) The 16th Amendment

2) FDR (the "New Deal")

3) And democrate elected into office since FDR

And the overall downfall of American can be directly traced back to the 19 Amendment (if you haven't noticed, we have been sliding down that slipperly slope for years).

Wuptdo B-)

Wow, talk about where this thread has gone off too!

[hollyL]

Women's right to vote caused the downfall of society? You better start a new thread for this one...

[johnb]

Any response to your request yet Holly?

[hollyL]

Not yet but they have to provide it by law (and you know what a stickler I am about the law) :-D

-------------------------
From IRS publication Pub 4220 (9-2003):

A charitable organization must make available for public inspection its approved application for recognition of exemption with all supporting documents and its last three annual information returns. Pursuant to the Taxpayer Bill of Rights 2, the organization is required to provide copies of these documents upon request without charge (other than a reasonable fee for reproduction and copying costs). Penalties are provided for failure to comply with these requirements. For more information, see ourfrequenty asked questions, the final regulations published in Internal Revenue Bulletin 1999-17, or download Disclosure Requirements.

Section 501(c)(3) organizations are required to keep books and records detailing all activities, both financial and nonfinancial. Financial information, particularly information on its sources of support (contributions, grants, sponsorships, and other
sources of revenue) is crucial to determining an organization’s private foundation status. See Publication 4221, Compliance Guide for 501(c)(3) Tax-Exempt Organizations, Publication 557, and the instructions to Forms 990, 990-EZ, and 990-PF for more information
---------------------------------------------------------
Public inspection and distribution of applications for tax exemption and annual information returns of tax-exempt organizations. Under Regulations sections 301.6104(d)-1 through 301.6104(d)-3, a tax-exempt organization must:

Make its application for recognition of exemption and its annual information returns available for public inspection without charge at its principal, regional and district offices during regular business hours.

Make each annual information return available for a period of 3 years beginning on the date the return is required to be filed (determined with regard to any extension of time for filing) or is actually filed, whichever is later.

Provide a copy without charge, other than a reasonable fee for reproduction and actual postage costs, of all or any part of any application or return required to be made available for public inspection to any individual who makes a request for such copy in person or in writing (except as provided in Regulations sections 301.6104(d)-2 and -3).

[johnb]

well....it appears I'm not the only mean SOB on Carypolitics.... 8)

[Brent]

Maybe we should start a religion that considers dog unclean and the embodiment of evil in the world. Funding the doggie park would be offensive to our religion and a frivolous government endorsement of the same. john

Would that be the, what was it again? Church of the Painful Truth? :wink:

[Brent]

Oh, and don't get me wrong...I love dogs. Just not dog owners who want to pick my pocket.

[johnb]

Absolutely Brent. One tenant of the religion should be that whatever deities the religion may or may not care about all demand sacrifices of dog as a method of expunging evil from the world. And we *really, really* mean well in slaughtering the dogs. :twisted:

[washere]

This thread needs a bump!!!

[johnb]

Theft by Government is a crime that takes time to develop, you all saw the beginnings of the pillaging of the public treasury Saturday.

[Wuptdo]

JohnB wrote:


Theft by Government is a crime that takes time to develop, you all saw the beginnings of the pillaging of the public treasury Saturday.

Right now the doggie park is going to become an issue. Adam was there from the Cary News. So why everyone is up in arms and focused on the doggie park (attention getter at only $75K), the "pool palace" folks are lining up their ducks for a $15-30 million bucks raid on our public treasury. This is a very typical Public Relations technique to divert public attention. Follow the money folks, follow the money.

FYI - I believe that if you add this year's budget money, there is already $15 million set aside for the Cary Swim Club public (really private) pool complex. I understand, that Cary is facing somewhere between $6-7 million dollar shortfall (I think I actually saw that here on CP) next fiscal year. Also, someone else is building a pool/ice palace somewhere in Cary and not asking for money, but would probably like some. However, the difference between the two rival "pool" organizations is that one wears "red" suits, while the other wears "blue" suits. Heaven forbid that their children have to swim in the same water! :roll:

Wuptdo B-)

Special note: And don't forget that new Waste Water Treatment plant has to be financed next year ($90-110 million dollars). :grin:

[washere]

Wup-
Interesting insights...

Tim brought up the same point last night- wondering if maybe the doggie park was the public relations nightmare for this year intentionally (to divert scrutiny from the aquatics palace).

Somehow, I don't think it is. I think what happened, is that a couple of us here on CP have gotten ahold of the doggie park fiasco, and are getting the word out.

Were it not for the e-mail that john posted a couple months ago, would we really be paying that much attention to it? My guess, is that we'd all have seen the item on the CTC agenda, and showed up to protest, albeit a bit too late to do any good.

I think it will be the same deal with the aquatics palace. I wouldn't mind a public pool in Cary, kinda like I wouldn't mind a dedicated park for doggies in Cary. Heck, I might actually use the places.

But I think that we'll show up to the public hearings, and it will become irrefutibly clear with the aquatics palace (just like it was/is with the doggie park) that it is a dedicated special interest project. Sold as being "for the town", but that the town overwhelmingly can't/won't use.

[johnb]

Were it not for the e-mail that john posted a couple months ago, would we really be paying that much attention to it?

Another reason I made the top of Cary's most wanted list.

:twisted:

The city council has no idea what they voted on. They were confused about the numbers and now the staff is trying to pull that "it will pay for itself" nonsense they pulled for Regency, Skate Park, Tennis Center, ad nauseum.

[d4vendel]

Charchar said:


I wouldn't mind a public pool in Cary...

Neither would I. I just wish that the council would learn that "public pool" does not equal "world class aquatics center."

How many nice, simple public pools could $15M buy to put around Cary?

- David
**************
Merry Christmas!

[Don]

This thread needs a bump!!!

What the heck for? The title alone is so insulting and demeaning that "if" I were a "council critter" (as some love to refer to them as) I would probably NOT wish to help the poster, their cause, or even listen to their arguements. Too bad, the thread actually makes some good points.

I will say this, when I pull up the forums on my PC and see this title, it turns me off to the point where I don't wish to post anymore. In fact, I was actually proud I hadn't posted in this thread....until now.

[washere]

Don-
I bumped the thread, because of the thread that we had on the recent dog park public hearing.

I thought that anyone reading (who may not remember) might be interested in the history of the situation and didn't think it proper to simply cut and paste john's op into the new thread.

[Don]

Don-
I bumped the thread, because of the thread that we had on the recent dog park public hearing.

I thought that anyone reading (who may not remember) might be interested in the history of the situation and didn't think it proper to simply cut and paste john's op into the new thread.

You think John's Op letter helps the situation any? I would refer you to your signature line at the bottom of your posts, If you don't have anything nice to say.......Don't we practice what we preach?

[washere]

Don-
What do you mean by "help the situation"?

Is it likely that a letter such as John's will get the dog park vetoed? I sure couldn't tell ya.

Whether that would be an effective way to accomplish John's purpose is beside the point.

The point is (and the reason I bumped the post), is that that op and the discussion that follows is an EXCELLENT summary of the history of this issue.

Oh, and what did I say that was mean?! I absolutely REFUSE to take responsibility for John Barbara's words and actions. If you've got a problem with what he said, I'd suggest you take it up with him.

[Don]

Don-
What do you mean by "help the situation"?

The "situation" is that there are some of us who wish to offer critisism, maybe even constructive, to council - or an alternative idea in a somewhat more positive way. The title of this thread does nothing to help that "situation", and in fact hurts the causes of anyone using this board. What do you think the Mayor or members of council would think after reading this title? Do you honestly believe they would want to hear our concerns over the dog park anymore?


Is it likely that a letter such as John's will get the dog park vetoed? I sure couldn't tell ya.

Hell no, in fact, it may cause those who were "on the fence" to vote FOR it just to piss off John.....after all, it's only 75 grand.


Whether that would be an effective way to accomplish John's purpose is beside the point.

Obviously you missed my point


The point is (and the reason I bumped the post), is that that op and the discussion that follows is an EXCELLENT summary of the history of this issue.

So who here besides Charchar needs to be refreshed on the dog park?.......This one has been beat to death, trust me. I do appreciate the updates from the recent meeting, seriously, that's new info and worth the post, but dragging this crap up is stupid, especially since this will go before council soon.


Oh, and what did I say that was mean?! I absolutely REFUSE to take responsibility for John Barbara's words and actions. If you've got a problem with what he said, I'd suggest you take it up with him.

LOL!!! Thanks for the great advice Char. :roll: Words of wisdom back at ya - You attract more bees with Honey. "If" I/You wanted to oppose the dog park in a way that would/could be positive or constructive, bumping a post with this title would NOT be a smart way to go about it.

[johnb]

There's a scary thought....you are suggesting the council critters would engage in pork barrell spending just to "piss me off".

And *I'm* the one with a low opinion of the city council? Well, yes I am that guy, but how far behind are the rest of you? If you concede that, yes, the city council would vote to spend money in a way that is not in the best interests of the city taxpayers but instead just to be spiteful, how is that materially less offensive than my questioning their intelligence in a condemnatory fashion?

I thought the point of being on the city council was to serve the best interests of the taxpayers and other citizens of Cary, not to get the political power to irritate people you don't like.

I'm suggesting they voted on an expenditure without knowing what they were voting on, in fact a certain email from one council critter to staff questioning what the council had approved pretty much demonstrated my point. They got hoodwinked, maybe willingly, and now they won't back down for fear of having to admit a mistake.

Besides, this is an old thread....call it a youthful indiscretion, it's time to put this behind us and move the community forward, leave no child behind! I apologize if my words may have been taken in such a way as to cause pain in the community. This is a divisive issue and as such all plans for it and all discussion of it should be immediately dropped and all walk away from it in order to concentrate on the issues that matter to the city of Cary. I'm all about healing and bring the community together. Celebrate something or another!

[washere]

Don-
I appreciate your frustrations, I just think that you're taking them out on the wrong person. As I said before repeatedly (apparently you missed MY point), I bumped this thread as background for the recent dog park meeting topic. Though lots of members of CP posted in the thread, there have been new members since the middle of August (including myself) who may not have been familiar with the subject. Case in point: d4vendel who posted right before you.

If you think this thread is obnoxious and inflammatory, then by all means, let it die.

In all sincerity, if you think this (meaning inflammatory posting) warrants further discussion, then I would suggest you start a new topic on the subject so as to quit keeping this one near the top.

I couldn't agree more that we will likely catch more flies with honey than vinegar. I also agree, that even if it shouldn't, such inflammatory subject lines and direct attacks tend to make those with the power shut down and discontinue efforts to listen to our side.

Again, I apologize for triggering such outrage on your part. I was just trying to keep the information about the dog park together for people (like me) who didn't read CP when this whole fiasco started a couple months ago.

[johnb]

this title would NOT be a smart way to go about it.

All kidding and taunting of council critters and such aside....

If one had some reasonable expectation that the city council would not approve the expenditure you are absolutely correct.

What is the track record our city council has when it comes to approving funding for pork barrell expenditures that staff tells them "pay for itself" ?

I think the record is pretty clear. Decisively clear. It will get approved. The council members know the math. Few voters will rally to their opponents in the next election cycle because of this raid on the public treasury.

However, by spending the money they just bought the votes of the members of the Cary Dog Club. While that's not decisive, add every pork barrell project up and while the aggregate of cash is not going to bankrupt the city, it is fiscally irresponsible. However, on the plus side, buying off one special interest group after another adds a lot of votes on election day. The math they're worried about first and foremost is not accountants math, it's electoral math.

The Cary Dog Club will get their park. The Cary Swim Club will get their Aquatics Palace. (Yes Charlotte, and that does NOT mean Cary will have a "public pool". Cary will have a government funded pool to which the Cary Swim Club retains the keys to the door, that pool will NOT be there for your use unless your kid is a member of their swim team.) The next special interest group that comes along with a cause and enough bleating members to cry for government funding will get the cash they demand too. It is repetitive, it is predictable, and it is damned near unstoppable. That's politics.

You can complain about it and even argue against it at council meetings, in the press, and here and it won't matter folks. Unless you create the Cary Anti-Dog Club Park with more dues paying members willing to write cutesy emails en masse to the city council than the Cary Dog Club, you loose because you've already lost the electoral math.

All the while people are being hurt in automobile wrecks at dangerous intersections across Cary on a weekly basis because the city council refuses to adjust the city budget to take care of it's legitimate priorities. Since they are so callous as to refuse to put the money up to fix Walnut Street near Crossroads or the Chatham/Old Apex merge area and save us the wrecks, the injuries, and even fatalities because they've spent the cash on Regency, the Skate Park, the Tennis Center what makes anyone think they'll respond to anyone's concern about this on a budgetary level?

I'm stumped. They'll tolerate people being carted off in ambulances because we have intersections rated failing right now rather than eliminate the pork barrell spending to buy votes. That's the real issue. I can't think of too many nice things to say about politicians that will allocate city money like that.

[Wuptdo]

Standing up and applauding! =D> =D> =D>


Bishop JohnB, a most outstanding sermon! This should be read outloud at the next council meeting!

Wuptdo B-)

[washere]

In fairness to DonF, could we maybe start another thread on wasteful spending so that he can reply?

It just doesn't seem fair to keep trashing someone knowing that they can't/won't reply.

[johnb]

Trashing who? I'm not trashing Don F....hell, he's got my car right now!

Don is far more optimistic than I on the ability of any of us to make a change to city government. I'm a near complete pessimist. They're gonna do what they think will get them the most votes and nothing else. The doggie park is a prime example of this phenomena in action.

[Brent]

Trashing who? I'm not trashing Don F....hell, he's got my car right now!

...and I drove by, and it appeared that he was doing some sort of work on the brake lines! :wink: :lol:

[johnb]

I just hope I don't find 1st and Reverse crossed in the shifting linkage. :wink:

[Cathy]

Jeez guys....

Council and Staff are just looking out for your future welfare.
Once they have completed their mission from on high to transform Cary into a rabbit warren, you will need dog parks and greenways and grand swimming pools and world class sports facilities to go to because you won't have enough private space of your own to do much of anything in!!

Explore this: http://www.iclei.org/LA21/ONESTOP.HTM

[hollyL]

Don is far more optimistic than I on the ability of any of us to make a change to city government. I'm a near complete pessimist. They're gonna do what they think will get them the most votes and nothing else. The doggie park is a prime example of this phenomena in action.

I have NO idea why I'm getting involved in this thread but I'm actually a bit more optimistic that 'we' (you and I etc.) can make a change in city government. I've seen it myself with the sign issue. I won't say it is some huge triumph but it is something. I think honey is a good idea but sometimes brute force is necessary :-D

[johnb]

Think about what you are saying Holly.

It takes the threat of a lawsuit to get these people to revise a city ordinance that is such a blatant violation of the First Amendment that it stands zero chance of ever withstanding judicial scrutiny.

Why?

It's akin to the IRS. When they loose a decision in Federal Tax Court they will often forgo appealing it to the Supremes simply to avoid having to abide by that decision in other Court districts. Its dishonest, it is a violation of the Equal Protection clause, but that is the way bureaucracy works. They don't view the law as a protection for the people against government. They view it as an obstacle they must overcome in order to achieve their particular goals, consequnces be damned. Munincipal government is no different. Staff and Council want the ability to muzzle other people's free speech rights all so they can make Cary look like a DisneyWorld North. They value their own sense of asthetics over other people's Constitutional rights.

In the end, the Cary Dog Club will get their hand out. Don Frantz and the rest of the auto shop owners on Chatham Street will eventually be stripped of their property rights. And the Cary Swim Club will get the keys to that Aquatics Palace the rest of us are buying for them.

You may smack them on the nose periodically on minor issues like this, but they'll have the same ordinance in place again in a few years hoping no one like you will notice. This is the price we pay for allowing government to have this kind of power in the first place.

There should be a stiff armed salute to go along with "Celebrate Cary!" much like the Nazi "Seig heil!" just to mock the council.