Sen. Elizabeth Dole

[Wuptdo]

I see that Miss Libby has started her campaign in NC.

http://www.elizabethdole.org/

:wave:

[francejamie]

I see that Miss Libby has started her campaign in NC.

http://www.elizabethdole.org/

:wave:



It's a shame. Had she actually done anything for the state during her term in office, I might even be tempted to vote for her. Instead she just shilled for the Republican party.

[JoeCiulla]

Well, we did get all those robo-calls from her endorsing "her friend" Ernie.

[Icorpse]

I hear the early polls have her scared. It ain't gonna be a walk in the park for Liddy.

[Brent]

Liddy Dole has, in my opinion (which is what counts with my vote :) ) done a poor job of representing my interests in the US Senate.

For the few longtime CPers, y'all might even remember that she's even one of the many factors that influenced my decision to change my affiliation, several years ago, from Republican to Unaffiliated (I did collect...sort of...on a meal from Darryl Black as a result of that registration change, although he never drove me to the Wake Co. Board of Elections ;) ).

Liddy has great potential, but I don't think she's fulfilled it in her current job. And she's no Bob Dole.

[falcon]

She has done a very poor job. She rarely responds when you write to her. If you call her interns put you off. She has never done anything I asked or even responded.

Conversely Burr and Etheridge respond and help.

She is not represening us well and she must go!!!

[d4vendel]

She has done a very poor job. She rarely responds when you write to her. If you call her interns put you off. She has never done anything I asked or even responded.

Conversely Burr and Etheridge respond and help.

She is not represening us well and she must go!!!

I'm curious. What kind of requests has she failed to respond to? Just trying to get some perspective - not trying to pry.

[Dharma]

She has done a very poor job. She rarely responds when you write to her. If you call her interns put you off. She has never done anything I asked or even responded.

Conversely Burr and Etheridge respond and help.

She is not represening us well and she must go!!!

I'm curious. What kind of requests has she failed to respond to? Just trying to get some perspective - not trying to pry.

I'm not sure it would make a difference. Even if her constituent's request is innane, she should still send a computerized note saying she received the request but could not, at this time, fulfill it. If someone gave me a gift, I would still send a thank you note whether it be a Big Mouth Billy the Bass singing fish or a vase of roses.

BTW, my next door neighbor has a son Iraq whose base is Fort Bragg. He sent her a letter over a year ago telling her about the poor condition of the barracks (BEFORE it made news recently) and she never responded to that either.

[d4vendel]

She has done a very poor job. She rarely responds when you write to her. If you call her interns put you off. She has never done anything I asked or even responded.

Conversely Burr and Etheridge respond and help.

She is not represening us well and she must go!!!

I'm curious. What kind of requests has she failed to respond to? Just trying to get some perspective - not trying to pry.

I'm not sure it would make a difference. Even if her constituent's request is innane, she should still send a computerized note saying she received the request but could not, at this time, fulfill it. If someone gave me a gift, I would still send a thank you note whether it be a Big Mouth Billy the Bass singing fish or a vase of roses.

BTW, my next door neighbor has a son Iraq whose base is Fort Bragg. He sent her a letter over a year ago telling her about the poor condition of the barracks (BEFORE it made news recently) and she never responded to that either.

Re: your neighbor's son. Did he ever follow-up to see that she got the message or did he simply take the "she sucks" approach after one try? Did he also write Senator Burr? Did he get a response for him?

The statement, "She has never done anything I asked or even responded." is very broad and is hard to take a face value without knowing what kind of things are ignored . Some people consider not getting past a staffer or getting a canned email response "being ignored." Some people consider not getting what they want "being ignored." Without knowing the issue, it is hard to accept a blanket statement that, "If you call her interns put you off." without knowing what this means. Are you calling to see about an expedited passport for a family emergency? That's completely different than make your 37th call of the month asking why we are not our of Iraq yet.

I would say the same thing about the same criticism aimed at any elected official.

I agree that not even getting a robo-response to an inane response is wrong.

[Dharma]

Re: your neighbor's son. Did he ever follow-up to see that she got the message or did he simply take the "she sucks" approach after one try? Did he also write Senator Burr? Did he get a response for him?

Dave, I don't think he ever sent her a follow-up letter. I know he sent one letter each to Richard Burr and Elizabeth Dole. One of Burr's representatives called him within a few days asking him about the problem. There was also a follow-up letter with Burr's signature. Being the leftie that I am, I was quite impressed! However, I don't know if Ken ever bothered to send Dole's office another letter but he did say that she never responded to the first one.

**I have seen a lot of reader's responses on newspaper sites (the N&O is one) by people saying very much the same thing, that's Burr's office has an excellent record of responding and showing kindness while they get the opposite out of Dole's office.


The statement, "She has never done anything I asked or even responded." is very broad and is hard to take a face value without knowing what kind of things are ignored . Some people consider not getting past a staffer or getting a canned email response "being ignored." Some people consider not getting what they want "being ignored." Without knowing the issue, it is hard to accept a blanket statement that, "If you call her interns put you off." without knowing what this means. Are you calling to see about an expedited passport for a family emergency? That's completely different than make your 37th call of the month asking why we are not our of Iraq yet.

I agree with everything you say here. There are people who raise all kinds of hell when they don't get their way or feel the response wasn't to their liking - even though they did recieve a legitimate response.

But you have to admit that Elizabeth Dole all but disappeared from this state the minute she was elected. She must know she's in trouble because she has started her commercials very early in this election season.

BTW, spelling it "innane" was a typo. ;-)

[francejamie]

Now, I'll be the first to say I strongly disagreed with his policies, but Senator Helms was most responsive Senator I've ever heard of. He knew how to take care of the people of the state who needed something. I think Burr is trying to follow in his footsteps in that respect.

I don't think that Libby could care less. All those of you who hate Edwards for his lack of attention to NC after getting elected, where's your condemnation of Dole for doing the exact same thing, so support the elections of the Republican party, rather than caring for her state?

[Brent]

I have written to Sens. Burr and Dole on more than one occasion, from everything on policy matters to requesting congratulatory letters for Eagle Scouts. Sen. Burr consistently responds, whether or not we're in agreement (in the case of Eagle Scout congratulatory letters, he goes beyond the call of duty and consistently arranges to have a flag flown over the Capitol in the Scout's honor and sends along the flag to the Scout). Sen. Dole has consistently not responded, not even the courtesy of an auto-generated form letter, as was noted earlier.

As Jamie points out, Sen. Helms, whether you loved him or hated him, knew how to serve constituents. That's how he got all those diverse people singing his praises at every election. Similarly, love him or hate him, Rep. David Price consistently responds to constituent contacts. It seems to me that that's Job 1 for an elected official.

Jamie, as already noted, I don't think that Sen. Dole has done a very good job representing her constituents.

[d4vendel]

Thanks for the posting, Brent. That states things very clearly and provides actual, repeatable methods of behavior. You can't argue with facts.

[Icorpse]

I have written to Sens. Burr and Dole on more than one occasion, from everything on policy matters to requesting congratulatory letters for Eagle Scouts. Sen. Burr consistently responds, whether or not we're in agreement (in the case of Eagle Scout congratulatory letters, he goes beyond the call of duty and consistently arranges to have a flag flown over the Capitol in the Scout's honor and sends along the flag to the Scout). Sen. Dole has consistently not responded, not even the courtesy of an auto-generated form letter, as was noted earlier.

As Jamie points out, Sen. Helms, whether you loved him or hated him, knew how to serve constituents. That's how he got all those diverse people singing his praises at every election. Similarly, love him or hate him, Rep. David Price consistently responds to constituent contacts. It seems to me that that's Job 1 for an elected official.

Jamie, as already noted, I don't think that Sen. Dole has done a very good job representing her constituents.

Elizabeth Dole is a phony. She is the Republican version of Hillary with a glass of sweet tea on the side. She has never given a dang about constituents as long as she gets elected every 6 years. I'd love to see her go this time around.

[Brent]

You can't argue with facts.

Gosh, a whole lot of people sure try! :D

[Dharma]

http://localtechwire.com/news/state/story/3107067/


RALEIGH, N.C. — Sen. Elizabeth Dole said North Carolina should have the option of allowing oil exploration off the state's coast, backing away from her long-held support of a federal moratorium on Atlantic drilling.

It would appear to me that she was for the moratorium as long as oil drilling off our coast was never really an issue. But, suddenly, when the leader of the party starts advocating for offshore drilling - she's now for it!!! OMG!

Remember the John Kerry commercials the Republicans ran, ad nauseum, in 2004?
FLIP. FLOP. FLIP. FLOP. FLIP. FLOP.

[d4vendel]

http://localtechwire.com/news/state/story/3107067/


RALEIGH, N.C. — Sen. Elizabeth Dole said North Carolina should have the option of allowing oil exploration off the state's coast, backing away from her long-held support of a federal moratorium on Atlantic drilling.

It would appear to me that she was for the moratorium as long as oil drilling off our coast was never really an issue. But, suddenly, when the leader of the party starts advocating for offshore drilling - she's now for it!!! OMG!

Remember the John Kerry commercials the Republicans ran, ad nauseum, in 2004?
FLIP. FLOP. FLIP. FLOP. FLIP. FLOP.

Yeah - 'cause it couldn't possibly have anything to do with the price of oil suddenly making previous unpalatable options look more viable...

[Dharma]

Yeah - 'cause it couldn't possibly have anything to do with the price of oil suddenly making previous unpalatable options look more viable...

So Dave, do you acknowledge that this wouldn't significantly affect production or prices before 2030???

And do you acknowledge that John Kerry changed his mind about things just like Elizabeth Dole is doing now? Why is it okay when a Republican changes his/her mind (and maybe even for the better) but when a Democratic candidate does it, they're called a flip flopper?

[d4vendel]

So Dave, do you acknowledge that this wouldn't significantly affect production or prices before 2030???

Nope. Solid commitment by the US to drill its own oil reserves will have an impact on the global market before the first drop comes out of the ground.



And do you acknowledge that John Kerry changed his mind about things just like Elizabeth Dole is doing now? Why is it okay when a Republican changes his/her mind (and maybe even for the better) but when a Democratic candidate does it, they're called a flip flopper?

If I thought Senator Dole was flipping on her core beliefs (abortion, second amendment, etc.), I would be labeling her as such - and quite loudly and forcibly. I see a distinction in the oil issue that you do not.

[francejamie]

[ I see a distinction in the oil issue that you do not.


No, Dharma sees the same distinction.... Republican....Democrat.

:iconbiggrin:

[d4vendel]

Or, more to the point, Capitalist....Tree Hugger.....

:iconbiggrin:

Sorry Dharma, I couldn't resist...

[Brent]

Not that this is terribly earth-shattering, but in the interest of following up on my previous post, I was at an Eagle Scout Court of Honor yesterday where the Eagle Scout actually did receive a congratulatory letter from Ms. Dole. That's the first one I can remember.

I suppose it's a start, but it's kinda late.

[Wuptdo]

Had a whole stack of letters back and forth from Miss Libby and even been to a lunch or too, as well. Reminds me of my Southern "step"-NaNa, clear mind, sharp wit, and a twinkle in her eye. She cares deeply for the people of this State and we should be glad to have her. Especially after that pathetic excuse of a senator she replaced.

For all you haters out there, because she is an "R", I would remind you to look closely at her voting record and all the good things she has done for our State. Is the Navy building that airfield at the "hatchery" on the Coast? Also, from what I'm reading, she does not like the "lyme-light" and much prefers to work the back halls of Washington. She is well regarded on both sides of the aisle as being fair and has "pissed" off GWB on numerous occasions, especially about "free trade" and "illegal aliens." Her biggest problem is the local media will not report on her or Sen. Burr for that manner only for one reason -- the "R" next to their name. Of course, it is negative, it's front page at the NandO and WRAL.

That said, she is my only hope for getting number three Son into the Naval Academy because my local congressmen is such a a$$h*le. Keeping my fingers crossed on that one.

[Brent]

For all you haters out there, because she is an "R", I would remind you to look closely at her voting record and all the good things she has done for our State. Is the Navy building that airfield at the "hatchery" on the Coast?

I, for one, do not "hate" Ms. Dole by any stretch of the imagination, and certainly don't hate or dislike or immediately react negatively to anyone who is an 'R' (or, for that matter, a 'D'...I'm a 'U').

In the particular case you cited, I distinctly remember that Ms. Dole took no position on the Navy OLF for a very long time, despite much urging and many pleas from many citizens. At the very end, she jumped on the "No OLF in that location" bandwagon.

I will reiterate that I don't think she's done all that great of a job representing my interests, and I'm not fond of her reflexive partisan activities.

That being said, I am currently undecided about who to vote for in this race, as I have not yet learned enough about her opponent to determine if she is likely to better represent me.

(Regardless, best wishes on getting #3 son into the Naval Academy...I can't believe he's old enough to enter the Academy already!!!)

[francejamie]

(snip)
That said, she is my only hope for getting number three Son into the Naval Academy because my local congressmen is such a a$$h*le. Keeping my fingers crossed on that one.
(snip)


Hopefully he's tried the route of getting good grades? Many extraciricular activities? Good references by people who know him?

I'm hoping that they base the enrollment in the Naval Academy on those things instead of pulling political strings. (yes, I am naive on this one)

[dhyatt]

[snip]

I'm hoping that they base the enrollment in the Naval Academy on those things instead of pulling political strings. (yes, I am naive on this one)

Yes.

http://www.belgiantop50.com/article-534-The-Ten-Toughest-Schools-to-Get-Into.html

To get into these schools, you need far more than just good grades, extra-curricular activities, and solid references. You need top grades, superior extra-curricular activities in generally liberal areas (not just occasionally working in a soup kitchen but starting one of your own), and references from well known and respected members of society. Of course, if you happen to be one of any number of different minorities, then simple above average grades and SAT scores will get you in.

The sad truth is that acceptance to the Top 10 (and most all the Ivy League schools) Colleges and Universities in this country is about as political an exercise as any kid can undertake. If you're white and middle class with excellent grades and test scores, it's probably not enough.

[Brent]

Indeed.

And if I'm not mistaken, you do need the recommendation of a US Senator or US Representative to get into any military academy. I assume this is what Wup refers to (as opposed to pulling political strings).

[Dharma]

For all you haters out there, because she is an "R", I would remind you to look closely at her voting record and all the good things she has done for our State.

Wup, I don't think ANYBODY who responded on this thread did so because they are "haters". If you'll notice, I gave compliments to Senator Burr for having an excellent track record of responding to all of his constituents.

That said, I feel it's a rare politician who cares deeply about his/her constituents (until election time). That includes those with Ds and Rs after their names.

Please let us know if Ms. Dole helps your son, okay?

[Wuptdo]

Naval Academy -- currently number three son is attending Hargrave Military Academy, which is also a academic "prep" school for the Naval Academy, as well for future ACC "stars" that may need to improve their GPA's prior to going to college (football, basketball, & swimming). He has made honor roll every semester, done great in debate, pretty good SAT scores, National Honor Society in Latin, and does advance math for fun. Just the type of kid you want after college running a power plant on a nuclear submarine. However, after a few weeks at Aviation & Space Camp in Huntsville, Alabama, I think he would prefer to a pilot. Funny thing, this is the last thing in the world we expected, as the Academy interviewed him, and we found out later.

I'm not expecting to get a designated "seat" as that is reserved for "politico's" from Sen. Dole, but a recommendation would add to the overall "package." Also, since he was "born & bred" in Carolina, he bleeds NC State red and has a strong desire to go there. Time & maturity will tell.

It's nice to have options, but I don't think there is a better deal out there for a motivated young person than the Service Academies -- they pay you to go to school, OTJ training in the summer, and give a job afterward. What a deal.

[francejamie]

Naval Academy -- currently number three son is attending Hargrave Military Academy, which is also a academic "prep" school for the Naval Academy, as well for future ACC "stars" that may need to improve their GPA's prior to going to college (football, basketball, & swimming). He has made honor roll every semester, done great in debate, pretty good SAT scores, National Honor Society in Latin, and does advance math for fun. Just the type of kid you want after college running a power plant on a nuclear submarine. However, after a few weeks at Aviation & Space Camp in Huntsville, Alabama, I think he would prefer to a pilot. Funny thing, this is the last thing in the world we expected, as the Academy interviewed him, and we found out later.

I'm not expecting to get a designated "seat" as that is reserved for "politico's" from Sen. Dole, but a recommendation would add to the overall "package." Also, since he was "born & bred" in Carolina, he bleeds NC State red and has a strong desire to go there. Time & maturity will tell.

It's nice to have options, but I don't think there is a better deal out there for a motivated young person than the Service Academies -- they pay you to go to school, OTJ training in the summer, and give a job afterward. What a deal.


Sounds well qualified. Best of luck to him!

[d4vendel]

So Dave, do you acknowledge that this wouldn't significantly affect production or prices before 2030???



Nope. Solid commitment by the US to drill its own oil reserves will have an impact on the global market before the first drop comes out of the ground.


And on the day President Bush removes the executive order banning off-shore drilling, oil drops $9 a barrel....thats over 6% on a baby step toward drilling our own reserves. Imagine what a real commitment would do.



Bush Says Drill, Drill, Drill — and Oil Drops $9! [Larry Kudlow (http://kudlow.nationalreview.com/author/?q=NDQ4MQ==)]

In a dramatic move yesterday President Bush removed the executive-branch moratorium on offshore drilling. Today, at a news conference, Bush repeated his new position, and slammed the Democratic Congress for not removing the congressional moratorium on the Outer Continental Shelf and elsewhere. Crude-oil futures for August delivery plunged $9.26, or 6.3 percent, almost immediately as Bush was speaking, bringing the barrel price down to $136.

Now isn’t this interesting?

Democrats keep saying that it will take 10 years or longer to produce oil from the offshore areas. And they say that oil prices won’t decline for at least that long. And they, along with Obama and McCain, bash so-called oil speculators. And today we had a real-world example as to why they are wrong. All of them. Reid, Pelosi, Obama, McCain — all of them.

Traders took a look at a feisty and aggressive George Bush and started selling the market well before a single new drop of oil has been lifted. What does this tell us? Well, if Congress moves to seal the deal, oil prices will probably keep on falling. That’s the way traders work. They discount the future. Psychology and expectations can turn on a dime.

Read more. (http://kudlow.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NjMyNDljNTQ5MThjNWE3YTAzYWYzMmZmNDVmMjA0ZWY=)..

[Dharma]

And on the day President Bush removes the executive order banning off-shore drilling, oil drops $9 a barrel....thats over 6% on a baby step toward drilling our own reserves. Imagine what a real commitment would do.

Dave,
OMG! Please tell me you're kidding!! The price drop had very little to do with Bush's bologna yesterday! Congress still has to pass it and it would take a minimum of 12 years before one drop of oil came out of the ground! Speculators know this. We know this.

WHile Bush wqas telling us the economy was sound, Bernanke was telling us the US economy looks grim. Who do you think the speculators were listening to?

Fed Chief Bleak on Economic Outlook
By STEVEN R. WEISMAN
A sense of gloom gripped Washington as the Federal Reserve
chairman warned of the risks of a slowdown.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/16/business/economy/16econ.html?th&emc=th

Here's a link to more information about the fall of oil yesterday:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/15/oil-prices-experience-sha_n_112950.html


Oil Prices Experience Sharpest Fall In 17 Years

NEW YORK — Oil prices fell harder than they have in 17 years Tuesday, as fears that record fuel prices are spreading broad economic pain exacerbated the third big sell-off in just over a week.

Light, sweet crude plunged $6.44, or 4.4 percent, to settle at $138.74 a barrel in an extremely volatile session. Prices at one point plummeted more than $10 from the day's high.

Mounting concerns about the risks inflation poses to the United States, the world's biggest oil consumer, helped spark the declines. Analysts also attributed the sell-off to Thursday's expiration of options contracts, which tend to increase volatility, and to computers programed to automatically sell once prices reach certain thresholds.

"There was this big ... selling pressure when prices dipped below $140 a barrel. It got a lot of bulls very nervous," said Tom Kloza, chief oil analyst at the Oil Price Information Service. "If it was a fire, you'd call it an accelerant."

The drop, which eclipsed last Tuesday's slide of $5.33, marked the biggest decline in dollar terms since the Gulf War. Even so, prices remain no lower than they were a week ago.

Longtime market observers cautioned that the turnaround may not signal a lasting shift in sentiment _ prices have swung violently in recent days as they flirted with record highs. But it does underscore investor uncertainty about the sustainability of sky-high prices and their potentially long-lasting effects on the broader economy.

Over the course of the day, the contract rose as high as $146.73 and fell as low as $135.92. Prices hit a record $147.27 Friday.

Concerns about the economy were high on traders' minds Tuesday.

Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke told Congress that "numerous difficulties" are racking the U.S. economy, and warned that rising prices for energy and food are elevating the risks of inflation.

At the same time, the Labor Department reported that wholesale inflation jumped by 1.8 percent last month, a larger-than-expected gain. Over the past year, wholesale prices have risen 9.2 percent, the most since 1981.

"Traders get spooked and simply sell positions," said Jim Ritterbusch, president of energy consultancy Ritterbusch and Associates. "The threat of recession, at some point the market's going to plug that in."

Lingering concerns about the health of the financial sector continued to weigh on banking stocks, reminding energy traders that oil prices are not immune to troubles elsewhere in the market.

"Since investment banks have been increasing their ... exposure to commodities, their current distress can have a significant impact on oil prices if they are forced to liquidate commodity positions in a run for cash," Olivier Jakob, an analyst at Petromatrix in Switzerland, said in a research note.

The latest monthly market report from the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries gave traders further reason to unload oil.

The cartel predicted world oil demand will rise by 900,000 barrels a day in 2009, or 100,000 barrels per day less than this year. OPEC blamed the slowdown on a slumping economy and high pump prices in richer industrialized countries.

Meanwhile, a five-day strike by Brazilian oil workers that began early Monday had less effect on output than feared.

The dollar fell to a new low against the euro, but that did little to halt oil's decline. The weaker dollar has driven prices sharply higher in recent months, enticing investors to pump money into oil as a hedge against inflation and making crude cheaper for overseas buyers.

In Washington, President Bush continued to press the Democratic-run Congress to open up new areas to offshore oil drilling. The president lifted a ban on Continental Shelf drilling Monday, but a Congressional prohibition remains.

"I readily concede it won't produce a barrel of oil tomorrow, but it will reverse the psychology," Bush said at his first White House news conference since April.

At the fuel pump, retail gas prices in the U.S. remained at a record near $4.11 a gallon, according to auto club AAA, the Oil Price Information Service and Wright Express. Diesel rose six-tenths of a penny to its own high of $4.83 a gallon.

Tuesday's sell-off alone is unlikely to bring drivers much relief.

"People shouldn't expect to see their pump prices drop," Kloza said. "By the end of the week, we may be talking about $4 (a gallon), we may be talking about $4.20. That's the nature of the beast."

General Motors Corp., the leading U.S. automaker, said it is assuming oil prices will hover between $130 to $150 a barrel next year. The company made the prediction as it laid out plans to slash jobs and truck production, suspend its dividend and borrow up to $3 billion as it grapples with an ailing U.S. economy and record high fuel prices.

In other Nymex trading, heating oil futures fell 14.59 cents to settle at $3.919 a gallon, while gasoline futures tumbled 17.29 cents to settle at $3.3848 a gallon. Natural gas dropped 48.2 cents to settle at $11.477 per 1,000 cubic feet.

In London, August Brent crude fell $5.17 to settle at $138.75 a barrel on the ICE Futures exchange.

[d4vendel]

And on the day President Bush removes the executive order banning off-shore drilling, oil drops $9 a barrel....thats over 6% on a baby step toward drilling our own reserves. Imagine what a real commitment would do.

Dave,
OMG! Please tell me you're kidding!! The price drop had very little to do with Bush's bologna yesterday! Congress still has to pass it and it would take a minimum of 12 years before one drop of oil came out of the ground! Speculators know this. We know this.



No. I am not kidding.

So I guess that whole acknowledgment of it being a baby step was lost on you? Where did I say the problem was solved or that there was not a ton of work still to do? :scratch:

I maintain my stance that even if it took 15 years for the first drop of refined crude to hit your gas tank, sending a strong, committed message to the world's oil producers that they will not have us "over a barrel" forever will have immediate and lasting effects on global oil prices.

[Dharma]

And on the day President Bush removes the executive order banning off-shore drilling, oil drops $9 a barrel....

First, the price of oil did NOT drop because Bush removed the executive order. I don't care how much you increase the size of your text.


So I guess that whole acknowledgment of it being a baby step was lost on you? Where did I say the problem was solved or that there was not a ton of work still to do? :scratch:

Nothing was lost on me. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean you need to get snide.

A baby step would be to regulate the speculators. A giant step would be to put our resources into discovering other forms of energy.


I maintain my stance that even if it took 15 years for the first drop of refined crude to hit your gas tank, sending a strong, committed message to the world's oil producers that they will not have us "over a barrel" forever will have immediate and lasting effects on global oil prices.

It's the speculators and oil companies who have us over a barrel. The oil producing countries are told what their oil is worth at the end of each day. The only strong, committed message you think you're sending is to the oil companies that they now have access to oil where they didn't before.

The waters off our coasts are called "The Graveyard of the Atlantic" for a reason.

[francejamie]

No, no. Dave must be right. Oil future prices never fluctuated before Bush removed the impotent executive order.

See, right here - totally flat until he removed the order. Therefore it must be a cause and effect.

http://www.marketwatch.com/tools/quotes/intchart.asp?symb=CRB&sid=2392733&dist=TQP_chart_date&freq=1&time=3mo

[Dharma]

No, no. Dave must be right. Oil future prices never fluctuated before Bush removed the impotent executive order.

See, right here - totally flat until he removed the order. Therefore it must be a cause and effect.

http://www.marketwatch.com/tools/quotes/intchart.asp?symb=CRB&sid=2392733&dist=TQP_chart_date&freq=1&time=3mo

ROFLMAO! :-)

[Dharma]

Back on topic>>>

Elizabeth Dole wants to rename the international AIDS legislation after gay-hating, racist Jesse Helms.
http://atomicgaywonk.blogspot.com/2008/07/obscene-dole-tries-to-name-aids-bill.html and http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2008/07/elizabeth-dole-says-****-you-to.html.

For those of you who LOVE Jesse, you have to admit that he went out of his way to promote policies that effected hundreds of thousands, of men and women with AIDS in America badly. To name any AIDS bill, even an international one, after one of America's most infamous AIDS-haters, strikes me as beyond the pale.

*Jesse Helms, the man who in 1987 described AIDS prevention literature as "so obscene, so revolting, I may throw up."

*Jesse Helms, the man who in 1988 vigorously opposed the Kennedy-Hatch AIDS research bill, saying, "There is not one single case of AIDS in this country that cannot be traced in origin to sodomy."

*Jesse Helms, the man who in 1995 said (in opposition to refunding the Ryan White Act) that the government should spend less on people with AIDS because they got sick due to their "deliberate, disgusting, revolting conduct."

*Jesse Helms, the man who in 2002 announced that he'd changed his mind about AIDS funding for Africa, but not for American gays, because homosexuality "is the primary cause of the doubling and redoubling of AIDS cases in the United States."

Does Elizabeth have balls growing under her dress?

[francejamie]

Wouldn't that be like naming a Jewish Temple after Hitler?

[d4vendel]

The waters off our coasts are called "The Graveyard of the Atlantic" for a reason.

...and it is an absolute pond when compared to places like the North Sea. Care to count the oil rigs there?



No, no. Dave must be right. Oil future prices never fluctuated before Bush removed the impotent executive order.

See, right here - totally flat until he removed the order. Therefore it must be a cause and effect.

Sure. Prices do move up and down. Does that prove or disprove that the rescinding of the executive order did not have an bearing on the drop in prices yesterday and the current $4.59 decrease in the price of oil today? I know that some people will never be open to the idea that Bush could possibly do something right and meaningful, but come on!

Let me see if I understand - oil prices move and vary, so we can't point to anything anyone does that could possibly impact the price.

On the other hand, temperatures fluctuate and that is irrefutable evidence of Global Warming that is entirely man-made and we should billions to fix the problem.

Does that about sum it up?

[francejamie]

Except of course that there are lots of fluctuations in commodities prices all the time, usually from factors that we aren't remotely aware of, but when Bush eliminates an executive order, which was doing absolutely nothing, you immediately assume that is the sole cause of a drop in oil futures from yesterday and today.

I'm impressed that you are nearly omnipotent and know the effect that all other factors had on the oil market, and could determine that this drop was caused by Bush's actions, without needing even the smallest shred of proof.

Please, omnipotent one, what will oil prices be in 1 year?

[d4vendel]

Except of course that there are lots of fluctuations in commodities prices all the time, usually from factors that we aren't remotely aware of, but when Bush eliminates an executive order, which was doing absolutely nothing, you immediately assume that is the sole cause of a drop in oil futures from yesterday and today.

I'm impressed that you are nearly omnipotent and know the effect that all other factors had on the oil market, and could determine that this drop was caused by Bush's actions, without needing even the smallest shred of proof.

Please, omnipotent one, what will oil prices be in 1 year?

Cute. I never claimed omnipotence. That seems to be your shtick.

One would think that two adults could discuss their differences of opinion rationally, but I forgot where I was at.

Of course everything that happens in the market effects prices. Do I still believe, no matter how condescending your remarks are to the contrary, that Bush's actions do have an bearing on prices? Yes. Yes, I do. Can I "prove" that they do? No. Can you "prove" that they have no impact on oil prices? No. Do I believe that you are wrong? Yes. Since it is rare that two people can talk about economic factors in the market and be in agreement, there is no real surprise.

I can only hope that Bush's actions are only one of the first steps down of the road of this country getting off its collective butt and tapping our own reserves of oil. Oil is not the long term answer, but while we are working on other alternatives we simply have to have oil. The vast majority of our society and economy simply cannot run without oil.

[MattD]

Regarding the drop in Oil today.... From Fox News business section:

http://www.foxbusiness.com/story/markets/industries/energy/oil-extends-decline-demand-concerns/

(THE HIGHLIGHTS/BOLD ARE MINE)

Oil prices tumbled Wednesday, extending a steep and unusually volatile slide into a second day, after the government reported a surprising spike in U.S. crude and gasoline supplies.

Light, sweet crude for August delivery dropped $4.50 to $134.24 a barrel in morning trading on the New York Mercantile Exchange. Prices fell $6.44 Tuesday in the biggest one-day drop in dollar terms since the Gulf War.

The two-day slide marks a dramatic turnaround in crude prices, which as recently as Friday traded at record highs above $147 a barrel. But even with this week's sell-off, prices remain about 80% above where they were a year ago and up about 40% from the start of the year.

Perhaps just as significant as the declines is the sudden increase in volatility. Prices whipsawed by more than $10 Tuesday and by more than $7 Wednesday.

"I think anyone you talk to would have to be surprised by the magnitude of these huge price swings. This is extreme price volatility that no one can predict," said Jim Ritterbusch, president of energy consultancy Ritterbusch and Associates.

"Extended two-sided volatility like this is indicative of an impending price top," he added. "People wanting to get out are just as enthusiastic as people trying to get in."

Sharply increased crude and gasoline supplies were the immediate cause of Wednesday's decline.

The Energy Information Administration reported that U.S. crude oil supplies rose by 3 million barrels, or 1%, last week. That is the opposite of the 3 million barrel draw analysts surveyed by energy research firm Platts expected. Gasoline supplies also leapt unexpectedly.

"The numbers were decidedly bearish on just about all fronts," Ritterbusch said.

Industry observers cautioned that prices could still bounce back, just as they have following large drops in recent weeks. Yet concerns are growing that high energy prices are leading to real shifts in consumer behavior that could cause demand to shrivel considerably.

The Labor Department said consumer prices shot up 1.1% last month, the second fastest pace in 26 years. Rising energy prices accounted for two-thirds of that increase, which was far worse than expected.

Testifying before Congress on Tuesday, Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke warned that the "upside risks to the inflation outlook have intensified lately, as the rising prices of energy and some other commodities have led to a sharp pickup in inflation and some measures of inflation expectations have moved higher."

American Airlines and Delta Air Lines, two of the three biggest U.S. carriers, each reported a loss of more than $1 billion in the second quarter, largely because of higher fuel costs.

"With each passing day, we are reading about more car companies cutting back on production, airlines slashing flights, and consumers driving less," said Edward Meir, an analyst at MF Global. "Of course, these are not new factors, and energy markets have ignored them for several months now as they have relentlessly pushed higher, but we suspect that as the pace of demand destruction accelerates it will be harder to ignore."

The dollar strengthened against the euro, giving traders less reason to go bargain shopping in the suddenly discounted energy market. A weaker dollar has enticed investors to buy oil and other commodities as hedges against inflation and a weakening dollar, but that incentive diminishes when the dollar gains ground.

It will be some time before any declines -- assuming they hold -- show up at the gas pump, where prices continued to advance.

U.S. retail gasoline prices added half a cent to $4.114 per gallon, according to auto club AAA, the Oil Price Information Service and Wright Express. Diesel prices also marched higher, up nearly a penny to $4.839 a gallon.

In other Nymex trading, heating oil futures shed more 8 cents to $3.8345 a gallon while gasoline futures lost over 12 cents to sell for $3.2616 a gallon. Natural gas futures fell 21.5 cents to $11.262 per 1,000 cubic feet.

August Brent crude fell $3.24 to $135.51 a barrel by midday Wednesday on the ICE Futures exchange in London.

[Brent]

August Brent crude

Well, you don't have to call names! :D

[MattD]

August Brent crude

Well, you don't have to call names! :D

Does this give you a free pass to be crude in August??!!

[Wuptdo]

What I haven't read too much about is the effect on oil prices in India and China. If it is hurting us, it must be brutal for their economies. Lest we never forget that Japan declared war on the US over crude oil and scrape metal. Also, the most devastating warfare that ever happened in the "civilized" world was the muslin conquest of India, and they have never forgotten it.

The oil must flow.........

[Brent]

August Brent crude

Well, you don't have to call names! :D

Does this give you a free pass to be crude in August??!!

Yes, I believe so. And I'll say that the free pass was issued by MattD, in partnership with Fox News. :D

[francejamie]

Cute. I never claimed omnipotence. That seems to be your shtick.


Funny, you'd think that when I said that there are all sorts of factors affecting the price, usually from factors that we aren't remotely aware of, you'd think that would be the opposite of claiming omnipotence.




One would think that two adults could discuss their differences of opinion rationally, but I forgot where I was at.

Of course everything that happens in the market effects prices. Do I still believe, no matter how condescending your remarks are to the contrary, that Bush's actions do have an bearing on prices? Yes. Yes, I do. Can I "prove" that they do? No. Can you "prove" that they have no impact on oil prices? No. Do I believe that you are wrong? Yes. Since it is rare that two people can talk about economic factors in the market and be in agreement, there is no real surprise.

I can only hope that Bush's actions are only one of the first steps down of the road of this country getting off its collective butt and tapping our own reserves of oil. Oil is not the long term answer, but while we are working on other alternatives we simply have to have oil. The vast majority of our society and economy simply cannot run without oil.

Actually, I've never said that it had no effect. I was just disagreeing with your assumption that it was the overriding cause.
You took one data point and tried to draw sweeping conclusions and suggested a future policy based on your conclusion. Matt's post with quotes from the Fox business section (Fox even...) , where they study things like commodities exchange, and give business explanations, versus the totally political spin you quoted gives a very different explanation.

I put more faith in the business article, because they don't have as much of a vested interest to do the political spin.

[Dharma]

More proof:


With higher inflation being driven by high oil prices, demand for oil was expected to fall, and so the price of crude oil fell after Bernanke’s comments.

When markets respond to news from the day before, they move at the opening bell. If you look Tuesday’s crude oil price chart at bottom, notice that the price didn’t move at all at the start of trading, and only fell by about $2.00 before Bernanke started speaking about how high oil prices would reduce demand. In other words, contrary to Larry Kudlow’s comments at the National Review,the oil market didn’t respond much at all to President Bush’s lifting of the Presidential moratorium on OCS drilling. Which makes sense, since the President did it to put political pressure on the Democratic leaders of the House and Senate, and not to produce real crude oil price reductions.http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i175/onedharma/oil_chart.jpg

Second, just because a drop of $6.44 from opening to closing of the market is the second highest dollar drop in history doesn’t mean it’s meaningful. The greatest dollar drop in crude oil prices - $10.56 - occurred when President Bush I announced that he’d release oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve (SPR) before the first invasion of Iraq. At the time, however, the price of oil was $32.00 per barrel, so the drop represented a whopping 33% reduction. Yesterday’s reduction of $6.44 came off a baseline of $146.34, so the percentage drop was a measly 4.4%. That’s not even enough to put the loss in the top 100.

In other words, Kudlow (and D4Vendel) is trying to give the President, and by extension the GOP and presidential candidate John McCain, credit for pretty much nothing.

For more: http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2008/07/16/the-weekly-carboholic-oil-prices-fall-but-not-because-of-bush/

And:
Larry Kudlow is a hack.
http://gr360.blogspot.com/2008/07/larry-kudlow-is-idiot.html

[chaboard]

Wouldn't that be like naming a Jewish Temple after Hitler?

Pretty much. Or naming a Civil Right bill after David Duke.

But since she's not speaking ill of the dead it must be somehow A-OK.

[chaboard]

I can only hope that Bush's actions are only one of the first steps down of the road of this country getting off its collective butt and tapping our own reserves of oil. Oil is not the long term answer, but while we are working on other alternatives we simply have to have oil. .

If we aren't well on the way to a long term solution by the time "tapping our own reserves" could have ANY appreciable effect then we are doomed anyway.

As the Republican governor of California pointed out not too long ago there IS NO supply-side solution to our oil addiction...the ONLY solutions (short-term AND long-term) are demand side.

It's a shame Reagan and the conservative movement killed Carter's bold steps towards energy independence and frittered away three decades that we really, really couldn't afford to waste. Now we have to solve the problem on the downside of Peak Oil.

As for Bush's actions they are not "first steps" to anything...they are only what we can hope just may be among the very last in a long sequence of actions that form the overriding theme and purpose of his administration...namely, federal giveaways to Big Oil. The one industry with the biggest vested interest in us NOT weaning ourselves off of oil. Ever.

[MattD]

Of course everything that happens in the market effects prices. Do I still believe, no matter how condescending your remarks are to the contrary, that Bush's actions do have an bearing on prices? Yes. Yes, I do. Can I "prove" that they do? No. Can you "prove" that they have no impact on oil prices? No. Do I believe that you are wrong? Yes. Since it is rare that two people can talk about economic factors in the market and be in agreement, there is no real surprise.

D4 - I believe some facts have been presented (i.e. Fox News Business) that show Bush's "call to action" was not the cause of the oil prices to go down. Would you agree?

[d4vendel]

Of course everything that happens in the market effects prices. Do I still believe, no matter how condescending your remarks are to the contrary, that Bush's actions do have an bearing on prices? Yes. Yes, I do. Can I "prove" that they do? No. Can you "prove" that they have no impact on oil prices? No. Do I believe that you are wrong? Yes. Since it is rare that two people can talk about economic factors in the market and be in agreement, there is no real surprise.

D4 - I believe some facts have been presented (i.e. Fox News Business) that show Bush's "call to action" was not the cause of the oil prices to go down. Would you agree?

The only cause? No. Is it my opinion that it is a factor in the drop we are seeing? Yes.

[MattD]

Of course everything that happens in the market effects prices. Do I still believe, no matter how condescending your remarks are to the contrary, that Bush's actions do have an bearing on prices? Yes. Yes, I do. Can I "prove" that they do? No. Can you "prove" that they have no impact on oil prices? No. Do I believe that you are wrong? Yes. Since it is rare that two people can talk about economic factors in the market and be in agreement, there is no real surprise.

D4 - I believe some facts have been presented (i.e. Fox News Business) that show Bush's "call to action" was not the cause of the oil prices to go down. Would you agree?

The only cause? No. Is it my opinion that it is a factor in the drop we are seeing? Yes.

Okay.

[chaboard]

Speaking of bizarre ideas of how to influence the cost of oil, here's an oldie but goodie knee slapper.....George W. Bush on the campagn trail in 2000:



"...Gov. George W. Bush of Texas said today that if he was president, he would bring down gasoline prices through sheer force of personality, by creating enough political good will with oil-producing nations that they would increase their supply of crude.

''I would work with our friends in OPEC to convince them to open up the spigot, to increase the supply,'' Mr. Bush, the presumptive Republican candidate for president, told reporters here today. ''Use the capital that my administration will earn, with the Kuwaitis or the Saudis, and convince them to open up the spigot.''


It's worth noting that gas prices have TRIPLED with the use of George W. Bush's apparently non-existent personality. Yet another supreme triumph of the conservative philosophy of governance.

[StanN]

I have met Kay Hagan several times when I was active in the NCGA. A smile and a sunny, engaging disposition doesn't necessarily make for a good Senator. But she was one of the few who asked for more information and really seemed to care about understanding the issues for which I was advocating. (Raising NC's rank in the bottom 20% of the 50 states in support of K-12).

As Chair of the NC Senate Appropriations Committee, she had the huge and difficult job of producing a balanced budget every year..something our Congress hasn't learned to do.

[francejamie]

http://www.wral.com/news/state/story/3655669/

http://wwwcache.wral.com/asset/business/2008/10/01/3654498/26112-bailout-220x165.jpg


Dole votes 'No' on bailout bill
by Mike Baker
Associated Press Writer
Posted: Oct. 1 10:05 p.m.
Updated: Today at 5:24 a.m.

RALEIGH, N.C. — Republican Sen. Elizabeth Dole voted against a revised $700 billion bailout of the nation's financial industry, but her colleagues passed the measure by a lopsided margin.
Senators loaded the economic rescue bill with tax breaks and other sweeteners before passing it 74-25, a month before the presidential and congressional elections.
Despite the alterations, Dole was unswayed. Before the vote, she called the proposal "a government takeover of our economy with no protection for taxpayers."
While she said the relief package was an improvement over the Bush administration's original plan, Dole said it does nothing to fix the housing crisis largely blamed for triggering the meltdown of the nation's credit markets.It should be fascinating to hear the response from the Righties, like Don, who blamed Pelosi's speech on cause the Bailout bill to not get passed, which then assumes that the Bailout bill is a good thing which we wanted to have passed.

Of course, now that Dole has voted against it, I'm sure they will fall all over themselves explaining why she was doing the right thing. But somehow, when they imagined Pelosi was responsible for causing the first bill to fail, then that was a bad thing.

[Wuptdo]

Thank you, Sen. Dole for doing the right thing by taxpayers.

Screw you, Sen. Burr to selling us out to Foreign Bankers/Wall Street. You just became a one-term wonder.

And what about Kay Hagan? Well, look what is buried away today in the NandO:


Kay Hagan has in recent days repeatedly dodged taking a position on the financial bailout package.

http://www.newsobserver.com/politics/story/1240044.html

[francejamie]

Thank you, Sen. Dole for doing the right thing by taxpayers.

Screw you, Sen. Burr to selling us out to Foreign Bankers/Wall Street. You just became a one-term wonder.

And what about Kay Hagan? Well, look what is buried away today in the NandO:


Kay Hagan has in recent days repeatedly dodged taking a position on the financial bailout package.

http://www.newsobserver.com/politics/story/1240044.html

I must have missed your thank you to Pelosi for "causing" the first vote to fail with her speech.

[DarylB]

Thank you, Sen. Dole for doing the right thing by taxpayers.

Screw you, Sen. Burr to selling us out to Foreign Bankers/Wall Street. You just became a one-term wonder.

And what about Kay Hagan? Well, look what is buried away today in the NandO:


Kay Hagan has in recent days repeatedly dodged taking a position on the financial bailout package.

http://www.newsobserver.com/politics/story/1240044.html

I must have missed your thank you to Pelosi for "causing" the first vote to fail with her speech.

She didn't "cause" it, it was DOA anyway..... but she did quite successfully shoot herself and her co-believers in the foot.....which ended up being an inadvertent good thing, fully not her intention.

[chaboard]

I must have missed your thank you to Pelosi for "causing" the first vote to fail with her speech.

It's worth pointing out that Dole's vote is EXACTLY what Hyatt was railing against Monday......a vote cast against the plan for clearly purely political reasons - there can be no doubt looking at her record that Dole would've been an automatic YES vote if we weren't sitting here four weeks before she faces the voters or if this were a low-profile bill. There were at most 4 or 5 Senators whose votes were clearly and inarguablly cast with their own skins in mind. Dole was one of those. Hey Don - where's the outrage today?

BTW, it should also be noted that McCain's vote yesterday was the first time he's bothered to show up and vote on anything in 6 months. And he broke that inactive streak by..... voting FOR a boat-load of earmarks!. Whoops. You just can't make this stuff up.

[Wuptdo]

FJ wrote:
"I must have missed your thank you to Pelosi for "causing" the first vote to fail with her speech."

So when did Nancy "Mafia Princess" Pelosi get elected to the Senate? Did you even learn that there are two "Houses" in Congress? Did you even finish High School?

Beside like Daryl pointed out above, the Foreign Bankers Bill was DOA upon arrival in the House of Representative and Nancy "Mafia Princess" Pelosi knew it. IMHO, they were testing "Wall Street" and market reactions by not passing it. Myself and many others (small investors/VC's) don't appreciate the "banking industry" holding "credit" hostage to ramrod a bad bill through Congress. I just glad this is happening before the election, because we now have a better idea who the patriots are and who the traitors are. We have a "free market" economy and we need to keep it "free," and let the chips fall where they may.

[DarylB]

I must have missed your thank you to Pelosi for "causing" the first vote to fail with her speech.

Whoops. You just can't make this stuff up.

.....and....


Of course, now that Dole has voted against it, I'm sure they will fall all over themselves explaining why she was doing the right thing.....

So....

Here's Dennis Kucinich after voting AGAINST, calling the bailout bill "immoral" and "a disgrace"...... and thanking the Republicans for having the courage to stand up to the "leadership".....

http://kucinich.us/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2467&Itemid=76

....we're agreed on one thing, you just can't make this stuff up!

[Dharma]

BTW, it should also be noted that McCain's vote yesterday was the first time he's bothered to show up and vote on anything in 6 months. And he broke that inactive streak by..... voting FOR a boat-load of earmarks!. Whoops. You just can't make this stuff up.

And it didn't end there, Chaboard. This morning McCain also declared that the bill he voted for is "putting us on the brink of economic disaster." (http://www.americablog.com/2008/10/mccain-this-bill-is-putting-us-on-brink.html).

And now, he seems to be calling for Bush to veto the very bill he voted for last night (http://thinkprogress.org/2008/10/02/mccain-veto-bailout/#comments).

Are those of you still staunchly supporting him at all concerned?

[francejamie]

FJ wrote:
"I must have missed your thank you to Pelosi for "causing" the first vote to fail with her speech."

So when did Nancy "Mafia Princess" Pelosi get elected to the Senate? Did you even learn that there are two "Houses" in Congress? Did you even finish High School?

Beside like Daryl pointed out above, the Foreign Bankers Bill was DOA upon arrival in the House of Representative and Nancy "Mafia Princess" Pelosi knew it. IMHO, they were testing "Wall Street" and market reactions by not passing it. Myself and many others (small investors/VC's) don't appreciate the "banking industry" holding "credit" hostage to ramrod a bad bill through Congress. I just glad this is happening before the election, because we now have a better idea who the patriots are and who the traitors are. We have a "free market" economy and we need to keep it "free," and let the chips fall where they may.

Sorry, I can't help you if you are too ignorant to understand that the vote in the House which failed, was a very similar bill to the new bill that the Senate just passed. The Right pundits and some on here (Don for example) blamed Pelosi for causing the vote to fail, and tried to blame her.

Here, I'll make this more to your level of intellect. Even you should be able to do a multiple choice.

So, which is it:
a) Was that complete BS on the Right (like usual)?
b) Did she cause the bill to fail, but that's a good thing and she should be praised?
c) Did she cause the bill to fail, and that's a bad thing, and she should be blamed, but so should Dole for actually voting against what's essentially the same bill?

[DarylB]

Sorry, I can't help you if you are too ignorant to understand .....

...and....


Here, I'll make this more to your level of intellect. Even you should be able to do a multiple choice.

So, which is it (notice that it's multiple choice, just for CP IQ's):
a) http://images.kenyonhill.com/sc/avatars/776_lachen.gif
b) http://images.kenyonhill.com/sc/avatars/776_lachen.gif
c) http://images.kenyonhill.com/sc/avatars/776_lachen.gif
[/quote]


So, let me try to rephrase that answer once again....

She didn't "cause" it, it was DOA anyway..... but she did quite successfully shoot herself and her co-believers in the foot.....which ended up being an inadvertent good thing, fully not her intention.

Anybody seen any Intelligent Debate around here....????

http://images.kenyonhill.com/tz/biopics/114430_Ducky_gif (http://images.kenyonhill.com/Image/Ducky__54504.html)

[Wuptdo]

FJ wrote:
"Sorry, I can't help you if you are too ignorant to understand that the vote in the House which failed, was a very similar bill to the new bill that the Senate just passed. The Right pundits and some on here (Don for example) blamed Pelosi for causing the vote to fail, and tried to blame her.

Here, I'll make this more to your level of intellect. Even you should be able to do a multiple choice.

So, which is it:
a) Was that complete BS on the Right (like usual)?
b) Did she cause the bill to fail, but that's a good thing and she should be praised?
c) Did she cause the bill to fail, and that's a bad thing, and she should be blamed, but so should Dole for actually voting against what's essentially the same bill?"

Once again, I wonder with your lack of cognitive ability and inability to follow simple logic why do you even post here. I think you will find yourself more at home with the lower IQ types at DailyKos, NCBlue, or just stay on-line at XBox Live.

But to keep it simple for you. The new Senate Bill and an additional 110-150 Billion Dollars in "earmarks" and tax incentives, i.e. a mark-up of about 15% and still no real controls with an additional 140 pages of stuff. So the new Foreign Bank Bail-out Bill is different. Sen. Dole voted NO, Sen. Burr voted YES.
Will this new Bill pass the House of Representatives, probably yes, but by a slim margin. Do I want it to pass -- absolutely NOT.

The answer to your question:

d) None of the above

Recap:
a) A few might have been PO'd by the Pelosi speech, but as I had stated before, the Bill was "Dead-on-Arrival" once it reached Pelosi & Company. Nothing more than Congress trying to improve on it's 9% approval rating, IMHO.

b) Pelosi knew she do NOT have the numbers to pass the bill put fly it out there anyway. Pelosi and others wanted to see what the Wall Street reaction would be. Also a good way to blame Republikans/Bush for having such a bad bill. Politics being played, but she will never be a Tip O'neal. as well, too. Please see below:


c) Like most of your postings, confusing at best. Once again, the bill was "DOA."
Sen. Dole also vote NO on the new bill as well. IMHO, nothing would make me happier than seeing this second bill fail in the House of Representatives as well. When Congress is "rushed" to do things, trouble soon follows. I think Sen. Dole is on the right track when it comes to this, see below:

http://dole.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressReleases.Detail&PressRelease_id=08dcfd07-9a25-4fef-9fa1-8321c933f18a&Month=10&Year=2008

Kay Hagan, oh Kay Hagan! Now where is she! We want to know what Kay thinks too!