Joe, the plumber

[DarylB]

While we have had our own success story with a plumber who spoke eloquently for us at a local level, yet another plumber has spoken up for the rest of us. It seems that he has worked for over 15 years to grow a business he had hoped to own, but now he's been told by Barack Obama that he's making too much money, and he will never realize his dream. Say it ain't so, Joe!

http://michellemalkin.cachefly.net/michellemalkin.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/1ajoew.jpg

Pam Meister has a great interview at Family Security Matters with the plumber whose wealth Barack Obama wants to redistribute.....
http://familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.1465/pub_detail.asp



JW: No, there was nothing new. You know, I didn’t appreciate that, actually.
PM: There’s a clip of you that’s been shown on television, and it’s all over the Internet on YouTube as well. It’s a very short clip. Do you think it accurately portrays the exchange that you had with Sen. Obama? Obviously there was more to it.
JW: I haven’t seen too much of it to be honest with you – I’ve been working yesterday and today, and the evenings spent with my boy or with my family. So I haven’t spent too much time looking at it. I did notice – I wish the newspaper people, talk shows, I wish they would start off with the very beginning: “Do you believe the American dream?” That was essentially what it came down to for me – was do you believe in the American Dream, you’re not going to punish people for going for it?
PM: To you, what exactly is the American Dream? Can you explain that?
JW: Me personally?
PM: Yeah, you personally.
JW: Me personally, my American Dream was to have a house, a dog, a couple rifles, a bass boat. I believe in living life easy and simple. I don’t have grand designs. I don’t want much. I just wanna be able to take care of my family and do things with them outdoors and that’s about it, really. I don’t have a “grand scheme” thing. My American Dream is just more personal to me as far as working, making a good living and being able to provide for my family, college for my son. Things like that – simple things in life, that’s really what it comes down to for me. That’s my dream.
PM: Do you think your question surprised Obama, caught him off guard at all?
JW: Well that was actually my intent. Most people, you ask them “do you believe in the American Dream?” Nine times out of ten they’ll sit there and go, “Yeah, of course!” That’s where he messed up, because as soon as I asked him that, his answer shows that he doesn’t believe in the American Dream. You know, like the question you asked before – he pretty much contradicted himself. “I don’t want to punish you but – “ Well, you’re going to anyways.
PM: Has there been a lot of media interest in your story? Have you been getting a lot of calls from the media asking you to talk about this?
JW: Neil Cavuto, I was on his show earlier today, just a phone interview for about five minutes. He asked a couple of questions. Then a talk show – Trey Ware – he has a conservative talk show down in San Antonio, Texas – he picked up on it. I’ve had friends call me from all over the nation, saying they heard Rush Limbaugh quote something from me or they’ve heard Hannity quote something. I guess it’s getting quite a bit of play.
PM: What kind of feedback are you getting from friends and family, other than the fact they have heard you being quoted on some very popular talk shows?
JW: Well, my son thinks it’s absolutely the most incredible thing in the world. He loves – I always teach him to speak his mind and to know what he’s talking about before he speaks his mind because usually there’s always someone in the room who will know what you’re talking about. So he just thinks it’s really neat. My friends – well, a lot of them will come to me and ask me political questions just because I think it’s important to know about it – and so they know they’ll get a straight answer from me, even if I don’t like they guy or I do like the guy, you know, I’ll give them the pros and cons of it and let them make their own decisions on it. But some, they know it’s pretty important to me. I was kind of actually nervous about doing any of this, you know, answering calls and going on that show. But they all, you know, said that I always answer them good and so they just said go for it, so they’ve been very supportive.
PM: Do you hope Sen. McCain will talk more about this issue during Wednesday’s debate, you know, taxes for small businesses?
JW: There’s a lot of things I wish McCain would say. As far as this, yes, I would like him to speak. Not so much about small businesses, but just people in general that make this money. It’s not up to them to help America, I mean – let me rephrase that. It’s not – they shouldn’t be taxed more because they’ve succeeded. That’s envy and jealousy. Get off your butt and go work. Don’t sit there and expect the government to give it to you. So I wouldn’t mind him speaking on it like that. I know he couldn’t say it probably like that because that’d turn a lot of people off. But it just – yeah, I guess I would like him to speak about that and a bunch of other things. I’d like to hear him talk about immigration and what he plans on doing about that and with our borders. I mean, there’s a lot of things that haven’t even been addressed in the last two debates.

http://michellemalkin.cachefly.net/michellemalkin.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/1asocial.jpg (http://michellemalkin.com/2008/10/14/crap-sandwich-20-a-trojan-horse-for-bank-nationalization/)

[Wuptdo]

As much as I can relate to "Joe, the plumber," I don't think this will get much more than a week of traction. Why? Because for every "Joe, the plumber" making $90 per hour, chances are that "Joe" has two helpers making $15 per hour who want what "Joe" has. From the "helpers" point of view, the only way to get what "Joe" has, is for "Joe" to pay higher taxes, and redistribute the "wealth" back down to the "helpers" via lower (or no) taxes for them (EIC), section 8 housing, welfare, healthcare, WIC, etc., etc. Thus by a 2-to-1 ratio, the "helpers" will outvote "Joe" by voting Obama & democratic ticket. On top of all that, "Joe, the plumber" is still expected to pay the "helpers" potion of SSI, Medicad, Unemployment tax, health insurance, etc., etc. In order for "Joe, the plumber" to stay in business, he must raise his rates to pay for the additional burdens of having the "helpers" in the first place.

Or he can fire his "helpers," lower the number of jobs he takes, and makes less money, which in actually may not be a bad thing. If "Joe" makes less money, then the government also gets less money, plus the government now has to pay for unemployment benefits to the two "helpers." But if the government is getting less revenue because "Joe" is working less, how does the government continue to support the unemployed "helpers?"

I don't think this is what the Founding Fathers had in mind for America.

What this election needs is another Willie Horton.

[Dharma]

Check out this story:

http://abcnews.go.com/ GMA/ Vote2008/ story?id=6047360&page=1


“Wurzelbacher conceded today that he is not in danger of being hit with the higher tax rate. He acknowledged that he wants to buy a plumbing company for $250,000 to $280,000. That wouldn’t be how much profit he would make from the firm.”

So the plumber-without-a-license wasn’t ever going to earn $250K, he wants to buy a company for that much money. Even assuming a 20% rate of return, he would only earn $50K.

[Dharma]

Geeze. You all should be emabarrassed that your party can't even come up with a legitimate plant.

http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/famecrawler/archive/2008/10/16/joe-the-plumber-republican-plant-and-relative-of-charles-keating.aspx


Joe the Plumber: Republican Plant and Relative of Charles Keating?

If you watched the third and final presidential debate last night you know that there were many mentions of "Joe the Plumber." Joe is actually Joe Wurzelbacher, an 'everyman' who appeared out of a crowd at an Obama campaign appearance and asked the senator about his economic plan. Joe says his American Dream is being able to provide for his family and send his son to college. But some are saying that Joe isn't who he appears to be.

Here's the buzz from the internet:

Wurzelbacher, who says he was playing football outside with his son when he came upon the crowd gathered around Obama, [B]was planted by the Republican party (http://citizenworm.wordpress.com/2008/10/16/confirmation-of-identity-and-link-to-keating/). This would explain how conservative sites got stories posted about him in advance of the debate and how easily everyone else found him for interviews.

Wurzelbacher is [B]Not a registered voter. (nhttp://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/The_Joe_file.html?resubmit=1)

Wurzelbacher may not be licensed in his home state of Ohio.

Wurzelbacher IS related to Charles Keating (http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/famecrawler/archive/2008/10/16/plumbergate-joe-the-plumber-is-related-to-charles-keating-and-also-owes-back-taxes.aspx). Robert Wurzelbacher (Joe's Dad) of Cincinnati, Ohio, happens to be Charles Keating's son-in-law. Keating was implicated in the Keating 5 scandal.
Wurzelbacher already owns a few companies, which would contradict his claims of being a plumber looking to buy a small business.
(One thing that is on the record: Wurzelbacher compared Obama to Sammy Davis Jr. in an interview with Katie Couric. Ouch.)

Some things are suspicious. For instance, how was it that a newspaper was present when Joe was watching the debates (they took the picture above) if Joe didn't know his name would be mentioned?

I'm sure the National Enquirer is already hot on Wurzelbacher's trail, so expect to hear more on Joe the Plumber soon. In the meantime, I'd like to get Joe's number - my bathroom faucet is leaking.

UPDATE: MSNBC has confirmed that Wurzelbacher has no plumbing license.

[Dharma]

Oh NOOO. Joe's father did time in a federal prison for.......his part in the Keating 5!!!!!

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE7DE123CF930A25751C1A9659582 60


KEATING'S SON IN LAW TO SERVE PRISON TERM
A son-in-law of the former head of Lincoln Savings, Charles H. Keating Jr., must surrender next year to begin a 40-month prison sentence.

United States District Judge Mariana R. Pfaelzer imposed the sentence last week on the son-in-law, Robert M. Wurzelbacher Jr., who had pleaded guilty to three counts of misapplying $14 million from Lincoln, an Irvine, Calif., savings association.

Mr. Wurzelbacher, 39, was an executive with Lincoln's parent, the American Continental Corporation, which Mr. Keating controlled.

Prosecutors asked for a six-year sentence, saying Mr. Wurzelbacher had volunteered little of use to them after making a plea bargain.

Mr. Wurzelbacher's lawyer, Mark Beck, had asked for probation and community service. He said Mr. Wurzelbacher was likely to serve 26 months before parole.

On Tuesday, Judge Pfaelzer ordered Mr. Wurzelbacher to begin his sentence on Feb. 4. She said she would recommend that he be sent to prison camp at Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada.

Mr. Wurzelbacher did not plead guilty to the indictment charging him and others, including Mr. Keating and Mr. Keating's son, with looting Lincoln and swindling investors who lost money buying risky bonds. Instead, he admitted that he helped Lincoln extend loans to a hotel partnership in which he, Mr. Keating and other insiders had interests. He said he knew the loans were unlikely to be repaid.

Lincoln's failure in April 1989 cost taxpayers $3.4 billion, a record.

SAY IT AIN'T SO!!

[DarylB]

Gee, Dharma, next thing you know you'll be telling us Joe the plumber hangs out with Bill Ayres and Bernadine Dohrn. But I hear they're actually just a couple he knows who happen to live in his same neighborhood..... When Barry Soetoro was only 8 yrs old....and Joe was only a teenager during Keating 5, so what are you trying to say, that a "plumber to be" caused the failure of a Savings and Loan some 20 years ago? and I think I actually ran across Joe's name in my copy of the PNAC....... and he was also seen working on the toilets in the North tower about 15 minutes before the collapse.....

....embarrass Barack Obama (AKA Barry Soetoro), and he'll throw you under the bus.....!!!!!

[Wuptdo]

My favorite is this:

Obama & Cheney are Cousins??

And even more wisdom from the guys at Red State:

Joe the Plumber

[Dharma]

Gee, Dharma, next thing you know you'll be telling us Joe the plumber hangs out with Bill Ayres and Bernadine Dohrn. But I hear they're actually just a couple he knows who happen to live in his same neighborhood..... When Barry Soetoro was only 8 yrs old....and Joe was only a teenager during Keating 5, so what are you trying to say, that a "plumber to be" caused the failure of a Savings and Loan some 20 years ago? and I think I actually ran across Joe's name in my copy of the PNAC....... and he was also seen working on the toilets in the North tower about 15 minutes before the collapse.....

....embarrass Barack Obama (AKA Barry Soetoro), and he'll throw you under the bus.....!!!!!

You are so pathological that you can't even admit the guy was a plant - despite all the clear evidence. I'm not only presently worried about your mental health but I'm really, really afraid you're going to go postal if Obama wins. Seriously, Daryl. You should see somebody before it's too late.

[Wuptdo]

Dharma wrote:
"I'm not only presently worried about your mental health but I'm really, really afraid you're going to go postal if Obama wins. Seriously, Daryl. You should see somebody before it's too late."

Geez, if this isn't a case of the kettle calling the pot black, I don't what is.

Dharma, if you only knew how concerned many of us have been about your mental health over the years. If I were Darylb I would be highly offended by your post above, i.e., the line of intelligent debate has been crossed. IMHO, if you were really concerned for another human being on this forum, perhaps a PM would of suffice.

DonH works very hard to keep this forum "family" friendly.

And that's what I got to say about that!

[DarylB]

Gee, Dharma, next thing you know you'll be telling us Joe the plumber hangs out with Bill Ayres and Bernadine Dohrn. But I hear they're actually just a couple he knows who happen to live in his same neighborhood..... When Barry Soetoro was only 8 yrs old....and Joe was only a teenager during Keating 5, so what are you trying to say, that a "plumber to be" caused the failure of a Savings and Loan some 20 years ago? and I think I actually ran across Joe's name in my copy of the PNAC....... and he was also seen working on the toilets in the North tower about 15 minutes before the collapse.....

....embarrass Barack Obama (AKA Barry Soetoro), and he'll throw you under the bus.....!!!!!

You are so pathological that you can't even admit the guy was a plant - despite all the clear evidence. I'm not only presently worried about your mental health but I'm really, really afraid you're going to go postal if Obama wins. Seriously, Daryl. You should see somebody before it's too late.

I already CONFESSED to finding Joe, the plumber's name in my copy of the PNAC document..what, you want a piece of my liver for Dr. Lector's dinner, Clarisse?


you can't even admit the guy was a plant...

Your point becomes QUITE THE MORE OBVIOUS when you realize the guy already has had a SUBMARINE named for him, and he's been waiting since 1909 to TORPEDOE the poor unsuspecting Barry Soetoro !!!

http://goatlocker.org/plunger/ss-2.jpg (http://goatlocker.org/plunger/ss-2.htm) USS
http://goatlocker.org/plunger/

[Dharma]

I already CONFESSED to finding Joe, the plumber's name in my copy of the PNAC document..what, you want a piece of my liver for Dr. Lector's dinner, Clarisse?

I asked for fava beans and a nice chianti to go with that liver, Hannibal.

Could you please just talk Multiple (Wup) Miggs in the next cell into swallowing his tongue?

BTW, Joe the Plumber was still a plant.

[DarylB]

BTW, Joe the Plumber was still a plant.


http://www.armiks.com/Olszewski-Disney/GR-33_A_Dream_Come_True_Cinder/TN-107_Scarecrows_Don_t_Talk__/GR-108_The_Tin_Man_s_Heart__Wi/GR-109_The_Apple_Orchard__Wiza/GROLS-WBC3.jpg
No, actually just a run-of-the-mill plumber, no photosynthesis involved... but I really AM glad you chose not to say anything about FLYING MONKEYS..not being PC on CP could have gotten you kicked off the site for a very long time!

[dhyatt]

Have to agree with Dharma on this. Don't know if McCain deserves to lose over it but someone on his campaign staff should never be allowed to work in the field again. This was just S T U P I D. Now we find out he also owes back taxes. This has to be one of the all time dumbest stunts I've seen this late in a campaign.

'Joe the Plumber' Owes $1,200 in Back Taxes
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/16/joe-plumber-owes-taxes/


HOLLAND, Ohio -- Joe the Plumber's story sprang a few leaks Thursday.
Turns out that the man who was held up by John McCain as the typical, hard-working American taxpayer isn't really a licensed plumber. And court documents show he owes nearly $1,200 in back taxes.
...

[Ankur]

I see nobody has brought up this. According to http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aWDHvDjnDnTs findings, would be plumber is already behind taxes.

How can one complain about taxes, when they have displayed no intention of paying it?
I guess he is following Palin motto - Paying taxes is not patriotic -

Here they come - clouds of shame!

[Ankur]

for every "Joe, the plumber" making $90 per hour, chances are that "Joe" has two helpers making $15 per hour who want what "Joe" has.

What is wrong with helpers wanting what Joe has. Wasn't Joe in same position when he wanted to buy plumbing business.

Wanting what others have is foundation of progress. It keeps a person going. It keeps nation going.



I don't think this is what the Founding Fathers had in mind for America.


Explain the same scenario with 'what founding fathers had in mind'.

A small business will always need help to grow and capture opportunity.
With that comes sharing of opportunity with employees that help you.
With that comes sharing the prosperity with employees that help you.

You are saying a small business owner should not be required to share opportunity and prosperity with helpers. SLAVERY?

[DarylB]

What is wrong with helpers wanting what Joe has. Wasn't Joe in same position when he wanted to buy plumbing business.
Simply that there's a substantial difference between wanting what Joe has (a good thing) and taking what Joe has and giving it to someone else, whether they be his helpers or anyone else (a very bad thing).

If the liberal press had spent as much time finding out about Barry Soetoro as they did in their "beat-down" of Joe, the plumber, we might know a little bit more about him. As it stands, he's a total unkown, with a very scary little bit we do know. We STILL don't even know if the guy is a US citizen....and as far as the full force of the Obama administration showing its first fangs, one has to ask, who among us will be next?... remember the brownshirts, who did the very same thing in the early 1930's... I think America has just seen its Heinrich Brüning moment.....

[chaboard]

Have to agree with Dharma on this. Don't know if McCain deserves to lose over it but someone on his campaign staff should never be allowed to work in the field again. This was just S T U P I D. Now we find out he also owes back taxes. This has to be one of the all time dumbest stunts I've seen this late in a campaign.

Ha! This is the stuntster who brought you "I'm gonna hold my breath and turn blue and not debate until the economy is fixed! Oh, nevermind I'll debate anyway". "Joe The Plumber" would be a career epic stunt for anyone else....for McCain it's just another day at the stunt factory.

[DarylB]

A small business will always need help to grow and capture opportunity.
With that comes sharing of opportunity with employees that help you.
With that comes sharing the prosperity with employees that help you.

You are saying a small business owner should not be required to share opportunity and prosperity with helpers. SLAVERY?

Key word here that is so easy to overlook...required. No small business owner is going to succeed if he abuses his employees. But he has to run his business in his own way, with the opportunity to either succeed or fail. An owner in a free society is NEVER required to share opportunity, but does so because he is in competition with another employer who will, and because those emplyees are free to come or go, at their pleasure. They are also not required to share their expertise and hard work with a jerk that won't do the right thing by them. It's called free enterprise, and it's worked a whole lot better than socialist "from each according to his abilities..." BS for all of us.

And, just for the record, slavery would mean just what your chosen word (required) implies, REQUIRED service of the worker (ie endentured servitude), as well as REQUIRED sharing of the business by the owner (socialism). What ever happened to the desire for CHOICE, which I thought was supposed to be a liberal's first spoken word?

[DarylB]

....Turns out that the man who was held up by John McCain as the typical, hard-working American taxpayer isn't really a licensed plumber. ...

A moment of clarity on Joe, the plumber...and it might do for a little "intelligent debate" to do a little FACT CHECKING! To wit:


Now let me tell you that many news outlets are getting the story right, that Joe’s boss, Mr. Newell (in business since 1974, God bless you sir, I’m sure you could never have imagined all this happening to you in America), is in fact licensed in Lucas County. How do I know? Because the State of Ohio’s computers told me so, and they would tell the media the same if they looked…like I did.
Mr. Newell is licensed. He is licensed in Lucas County. His license number starts with the digits 329 and then has two more digits. I don’t see any need to post more identifying information about innocent people. Search here, plug in the right parameters, and you can download the list of all licensed plumbers in Lucas County, Ohio (http://elicense1-roster.com.ohio.gov/default.asp). It is not difficult, though you have to provide information about yourself as the requester of the information.
So I got this list of licensees.
Mr. Newell is on that list. And if I read the rules of apprenticeship correctly (I am not an Ohio attorney, and yes I could be reading it wrong), the reported date of November 2003 as the date of filing of Joe’s apprenticeship papers seems to be just fine. According to this (http://www.com.state.oh.us/dic/diclicreq.htm),
“The Ohio Construction Industry Licensing Board (O.C.I.L.B.), Department of Commerce, Division of Industrial Compliance, issues state commercial licenses to the following contractors: electrical, HVAC, hydronics, plumbing, and refrigeration. To receive a state license, an applicant must meet the following requirements: 1) be at least 18 years of age; 2) be a United States citizen or a legal alien-must provide proof of being a legal alien; 3) either have been a tradesperson in the type of licensed trade for which the application is filed for not less than five years immediately prior to the date the application is filed, currently be a registered engineer in this state with three years of business experience in the construction industry in the trade for which the engineer is applying to take the examination, or have other experience acceptable to the appropriate section of the board; 4) not have been convicted of or plead guilty to a misdemeanor involving moral turpitude or of any felony; 5) pass the examination in the trade; 6) carry minimum $500,000 contractor liability coverage; 7) pay the applicable fees”
So here’s the point. Many news outlets have gotten it correct, but some have not and that needs to be corrected. Mr. Newell is licensed, and Joe the Plumber is just short of his five years before he can apply for licensure, but as supervised by Newell, he’s o.k.. You can look at screen captures of the entire list of Lucas County licensed plumbers here (part 1 (http://courtzero.org/lucasplumbers1.jpg)) and here (part 2 (http://courtzero.org/lucasplumbers2.jpg)). And as we read the news stories about local officials mobilizing to put Joe out of work, (quote: “A staff person with the Toledo Division of Building Inspection told On Call this afternoon that her division will contact Wurzelbacher to notify him that he can’t work without a license. “We’re trying to track him down,” she said” (http://hotlineblog.nationaljournal.com/archives/2008/10/im_not_a_plumbe.html)), consider the following:
Not one of the officers of Local 50 of the union shop of plumbers is on the list of licensees (http://www.ualocal50.com/contacts.html). Disclaimer: I don’t care that none of them are on the list, and I know that not necessarily every one of the union officers are plumbers at all, as they also represent other trades. That said, their spokesman is on record slamming Joe about licensure.
To their credit, an ACORN spokesman has weighed in that, “There is no such thing as an undocumented plumbing person.”

Still further, the MSM was crowing yesterday about Joe's relationship to a family member who went to jail in the Keating 5 .... guess what, turns out there are LOTS of Wurtzelbachers in Ohio, and the one implicated in the Keating 5... it wasn't a relative! I suspect retractions and apologies will be arriving in about a hundred years... took that long for the apologies for 1898, so I'm just guessing they'll stay close to form here.

Not that all this matters much to the slash and burn, scorched earth "journalists" and clingers-on, who will do ANYTHING to get Obama elected, except find out who he is! Remember, it wasn't Joe's question that got every body riled up. It was Obama's answer about "spreading the wealth around".

Bottom line, if Obama and his brownshirts will do this to Joe during the campaign, what are they likely to do to the rest of us once they have the power, position and money?

[Dharma]

I see nobody has brought up this. According to http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aWDHvDjnDnTs findings, would be plumber is already behind taxes.

How can one complain about taxes, when they have displayed no intention of paying it?
I guess he is following Palin motto - Paying taxes is not patriotic -

Here they come - clouds of shame!

It's amazing McCain didn't choose this guy to be his VP! They never bothered to vet "Joe" either!

Not only does he NOT pay his taxes, he is also NOT a licensed plumber. And it turns out he makes less than $250,000 a year, which means he would receive a tax cut if Obama were elected president!

[Dharma]

Joe The Plumber’ Comes Clean: ‘I Would Be Receiving Obama’s Tax Cuts’

As ThinkProgress and many others noted yesterday, the premise of Joe “the Plumber” Wurzelbacher’s complaints about Barack Obama’s tax plan was ill-informed. Contrary to Wurzelbacher’s claims, “neither his personal taxes nor those of the business where he works are likely to rise if Mr. Obama’s tax plan were to go into effect.”

As CBS News reported, even “Joe The Plumber” acknowledges this fact now:

So today, Joe, who said he makes much less than $250,000, reluctantly admitted Obama would lower his taxes.

“I would, if you believe him, I would be receiving his tax cuts,” Wurzelbacher said.

Watch it: (http://thinkprogress.org/2008/10/17/joe-the-plumber-obama-cut/#comments)

Last night, Sarah Palin said she didn’t want to talk about Wurzelbacher. “I begged our speechwriters, ‘Don’t make me say Joe the Plumber, please, in any speeches,” she said. After failing to properly vet Wurzelbacher’s situation, the McCain campaign is apparently now throwing him overboard and moving on.

The campaign is holding a conference call today with Russ Deker, an individual the McCain camp is calling “a Missouri ‘Joe the Plumber.’”

Well Daryl, I'd say he outlived his usefulness and now the McCain campaign has thrown another body under the Straighttalk Express. :-)

[francejamie]

It's crazy... you Righties yell about the high taxes that the rich pay, but they own all the wealth.

http://zfacts.com/p/728.html (http://zfacts.com/p/728.html)


One way to ‘see’ the distribution of wealth in the U.S. is to imagine a group of 100 people who have a $100 between them. Evenly distributed each would have one dollar of wealth. Alas, that is far from the actual distribution. According to the most recent study, Currents and Undercurrents, by the Survey of Consumer Finance (Federal Reserve, Department of Treasury, 2006) wealth is distributed accordingly:

50 individuals at the bottom have a nickel. ($0.05 times 50 = $2.50)

The next 40 each have $0.70 of wealth (40 times $0.70 - $28.00).

The next 9 each have $4.00 of wealth (nine times $4.00 = $36.00)

The last richest individual has $33.40 (one time $33.40).

Sure the top 10% of the richest people pay 68% of the income taxes, but they also have 69.4% of the wealth. Obama's plan increases the taxes from 36%->39% on income over $250,000. That really is not going to cause a big shift in the % of taxes for the US that the wealthy pay. Their taxes will still be quite proportional to the % of wealth they have. If anything, it'll make it closer to the exact same percentage.

[DarylB]

It's amazing McCain didn't choose this guy to be his VP! They never bothered to vet "Joe" either!



I'm certainly entertained by the fact you expect the McCain campaign to "vet" all the questions Barack Obama (aka Barry Soetoro) fields from his campaign rally rope lines! BWAAAAAAAaaaaaa

And as I've said before, it wasn't Joe, and it wasn't the question he asked, it was Obama/Soetoro's response that belongs under the bus.... as he explained, he plans to redistribute the wealth, which is the REAL take-away message here. Joe isn't running for office, he has simply been run over by the trampling left wing media mob to force down the doors of the Oval Office.

[DarylB]

It's crazy... you Righties yell about the high taxes that the rich pay, but they own all the wealth.

http://zfacts.com/p/728.html (http://zfacts.com/p/728.html)


One way to ‘see’ the distribution of wealth in the U.S. is to imagine a group of 100 people who have a $100 between them. Evenly distributed each would have one dollar of wealth. Alas, that is far from the actual distribution. According to the most recent study, Currents and Undercurrents, by the Survey of Consumer Finance (Federal Reserve, Department of Treasury, 2006) wealth is distributed accordingly:

50 individuals at the bottom have a nickel. ($0.05 times 50 = $2.50)

The next 40 each have $0.70 of wealth (40 times $0.70 - $28.00).

The next 9 each have $4.00 of wealth (nine times $4.00 = $36.00)

The last richest individual has $33.40 (one time $33.40).

Sure the top 10% of the richest people pay 68% of the income taxes, but they also have 69.4% of the wealth. Obama's plan increases the taxes from 36%->39% on income over $250,000. That really is not going to cause a big shift in the % of taxes for the US that the wealthy pay. Their taxes will still be quite proportional to the % of wealth they have. If anything, it'll make it closer to the exact same percentage.

...and that "$33.40" also goes to employ and pay for the $2.50 in wages of those with a nickel each. So if you take away say $2.50 as taxes, and give it to the government (on top of the costs of running the business he owns), and redistribute it to those wage earners at the government excellent and highly acclaimed rate of efficiency, and the government will give $0.75 in welfare benefits to those now former, currently unemployed workers, and you just kissed a lot of wage earners salaries good bye. And what have you gained? $1.75 of more government spending on earmarks! Meanwhile, productivity and incentives hit rock bottom.....kinda like the economies of East Berlin and the former Soviet Union.


Evenly distributed each would have one dollar of wealth
...and we all live on the collective, and pick berries to live off of, and wear birkenstocks to the collective hell we've invented for ourselves. Just a quick question, Which of your one dollar recipients is now the employer, and which is the employee? Maybe Stan will have to hold off on seeking that next billion for public schools, since EVERYBODIES broke in Utopia, huh?

[Dharma]

It's amazing McCain didn't choose this guy to be his VP! They never bothered to vet "Joe" either!



I'm certainly entertained by the fact you expect the McCain campaign to "vet" all the questions Barack Obama (aka Barry Soetoro) fields from his campaign rally rope lines! BWAAAAAAAaaaaaa

OMG. You're still completely blind to the fact that this guy was a Republican plant from the beginning. He was never going to be buying any business as he only makes $43,000 a year and can't even pay the taxes on that. Note to Daryl: If you're going to put a plant in, make sure he is what he says he is. If he really were a plumber (with a LICENSE) and didn't owe $1,200 in back taxes, the media never would have outed him because there would have been nothing ot "out".

[MattD]

A joke I heard from a comedian (not my joke so no reason to pummel me):



Since the Presidential debate, Joe the Plumber has given dozens of interviews to the media. That’s a couple dozen more then Gov. Palin…. Rim shot.

[DarylB]

OMG. You're still completely blind to the fact that this guy was a Republican plant from the beginning.

...and....


If he really were a plumber (with a LICENSE) ....

So, here's Joe's new logo...
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/163/380645017_1914c985b8.jpg?v=0

Dharma,

Soetoro is the one throwing Joe under the bus... he simply asked a question, and Obama hit him in the head with a 2X4, saying he was going to redistribute the wealth. Obama could have answered any way he wanted, but he OUTED himself. The fact that he plans to REDISTRIBUTE THE WEALTH is what this story is about.... and the specifics about Joe the plumber simply serve to illustrate the point. Bringing down Joe in a hail of vitriole won't change that fact.

Just for you, though, instead of snorting your milk and cookies through your nose as you settle onto your nap map for recess, please do read this first (if you can)....


A moment of clarity on Joe, the plumber...and it might do for a little "intelligent debate" to do a little FACT CHECKING! To wit:


Now let me tell you that many news outlets are getting the story right, that Joe’s boss, Mr. Newell (in business since 1974, God bless you sir, I’m sure you could never have imagined all this happening to you in America), is in fact licensed in Lucas County. How do I know? Because the State of Ohio’s computers told me so, and they would tell the media the same if they looked…like I did.
Mr. Newell is licensed. He is licensed in Lucas County. His license number starts with the digits 329 and then has two more digits. I don’t see any need to post more identifying information about innocent people. Search here, plug in the right parameters, and you can download the list of all licensed plumbers in Lucas County, Ohio (http://elicense1-roster.com.ohio.gov/default.asp). It is not difficult, though you have to provide information about yourself as the requester of the information.
So I got this list of licensees.
Mr. Newell is on that list. And if I read the rules of apprenticeship correctly (I am not an Ohio attorney, and yes I could be reading it wrong), the reported date of November 2003 as the date of filing of Joe’s apprenticeship papers seems to be just fine. According to this (http://www.com.state.oh.us/dic/diclicreq.htm),
“The Ohio Construction Industry Licensing Board (O.C.I.L.B.), Department of Commerce, Division of Industrial Compliance, issues state commercial licenses to the following contractors: electrical, HVAC, hydronics, plumbing, and refrigeration. To receive a state license, an applicant must meet the following requirements: 1) be at least 18 years of age; 2) be a United States citizen or a legal alien-must provide proof of being a legal alien; 3) either have been a tradesperson in the type of licensed trade for which the application is filed for not less than five years immediately prior to the date the application is filed, currently be a registered engineer in this state with three years of business experience in the construction industry in the trade for which the engineer is applying to take the examination, or have other experience acceptable to the appropriate section of the board; 4) not have been convicted of or plead guilty to a misdemeanor involving moral turpitude or of any felony; 5) pass the examination in the trade; 6) carry minimum $500,000 contractor liability coverage; 7) pay the applicable fees”
So here’s the point. Many news outlets have gotten it correct, but some have not and that needs to be corrected. Mr. Newell is licensed, and Joe the Plumber is just short of his five years before he can apply for licensure, but as supervised by Newell, he’s o.k.. You can look at screen captures of the entire list of Lucas County licensed plumbers here (part 1 (http://courtzero.org/lucasplumbers1.jpg)) and here (part 2 (http://courtzero.org/lucasplumbers2.jpg)). And as we read the news stories about local officials mobilizing to put Joe out of work, (quote: “A staff person with the Toledo Division of Building Inspection told On Call this afternoon that her division will contact Wurzelbacher to notify him that he can’t work without a license. “We’re trying to track him down,” she said” (http://hotlineblog.nationaljournal.com/archives/2008/10/im_not_a_plumbe.html)), consider the following:
Not one of the officers of Local 50 of the union shop of plumbers is on the list of licensees (http://www.ualocal50.com/contacts.html). Disclaimer: I don’t care that none of them are on the list, and I know that not necessarily every one of the union officers are plumbers at all, as they also represent other trades. That said, their spokesman is on record slamming Joe about licensure.
To their credit, an ACORN spokesman has weighed in that, “There is no such thing as an undocumented plumbing person.”

Still further, the MSM was crowing yesterday about Joe's relationship to a family member who went to jail in the Keating 5 .... guess what, turns out there are LOTS of Wurtzelbachers in Ohio, and the one implicated in the Keating 5... it wasn't a relative! I suspect retractions and apologies will be arriving in about a hundred years... took that long for the apologies for 1898, so I'm just guessing they'll stay close to form here.

Not that all this matters much to the slash and burn, scorched earth "journalists" and clingers-on, who will do ANYTHING to get Obama elected, except find out who he is! Remember, it wasn't Joe's question that got every body riled up. It was Obama's answer about "spreading the wealth around".

Bottom line, if Obama and his brownshirts will do this to Joe during the campaign, what are they likely to do to the rest of us once they have the power, position and money?

[francejamie]

...and that "$33.40" also goes to employ and pay for the $2.50 in wages of those with a nickel each. So if you take away say $2.50 as taxes, and give it to the government (on top of the costs of running the business he owns), and redistribute it to those wage earners at the government excellent and highly acclaimed rate of efficiency, and the government will give $0.75 in welfare benefits to those now former, currently unemployed workers, and you just kissed a lot of wage earners salaries good bye. And what have you gained? $1.75 of more government spending on earmarks! Meanwhile, productivity and incentives hit rock bottom.....kinda like the economies of East Berlin and the former Soviet Union.



Nice assumption, but this was personal wealth. What about those CEOs, those Investment Bankers, those Movie Stars, those other highly paid executives of publicly owned corporations?

Also, even under your assumption, that $2.50 is being used to pay for the wages, which then runs their companies, which gives them more than $2.50 back. ie profit. It's in their best interest to keep paying that. Thus the $ that comes from the rich would be from their huge piles of leisure money.

Gee, a few thousand rich people may have to take 1 less trip to Paris for a day on their private jet, each year, and then the rest of the country can afford to put gas in their car, and pay for their children to go to University. That sounds really terrible.

[DarylB]

...and that "$33.40" also goes to employ and pay for the $2.50 in wages of those with a nickel each. So if you take away say $2.50 as taxes, and give it to the government (on top of the costs of running the business he owns), and redistribute it to those wage earners at the government excellent and highly acclaimed rate of efficiency, and the government will give $0.75 in welfare benefits to those now former, currently unemployed workers, and you just kissed a lot of wage earners salaries good bye. And what have you gained? $1.75 of more government spending on earmarks! Meanwhile, productivity and incentives hit rock bottom.....kinda like the economies of East Berlin and the former Soviet Union.



Nice assumption, but this was personal wealth. What about those CEOs, those Investment Bankers, those Movie Stars, those other highly paid executives of publicly owned corporations?

Also, even under your assumption, that $2.50 is being used to pay for the wages, which then runs their companies, which gives them more than $2.50 back. ie profit. It's in their best interest to keep paying that. Thus the $ that comes from the rich would be from their huge piles of leisure money.

Gee, a few thousand rich people may have to take 1 less trip to Paris for a day on their private jet, each year, and then the rest of the country can afford to put gas in their car, and pay for their children to go to University. That sounds really terrible.

Or perhaps, they can still preserve and work toward one day owning and running their own company, and accruing a little personal wealth, and taking a personal trip to Paris on their own behalf, and not have to count on the government welfare check that they will never exceed nor do better than it's minimal expectation of having a pulse, and they will not have to be discouraged with the realization that they have absolutley no hope of ever doing better, no matter their level of creative effort or energy. Your olive drab world of mediocrity for all is my expectation of what Hell on Earth realized would look like....

[JoeCiulla]

OMG. You're still completely blind to the fact that this guy was a Republican plant from the beginning.

You honestly believe this guy was a 'plant?' Somehow the Republican party knew years in advance that Obama would be canvassing that particular neighborhood, so they moved him in ahead of time like a sleeper agent, ready to pounce? How is that possible?

To borrow a quote from Mr. T, I pity the fool. The Obama spin machine is trying to turn him into the 2008 version of Willie Horton. I am sure when Joe made those statements he had no idea how deep an $800M campaign would go to turn his life upside down. Whether he has a license or not, whether he paid his taxes or not, do you think poor Joe deserves what he got? I don't. This just shows how well-funded and ruthless the Obama campaign is. He doesn't care who he has to steamroll on the way to the white house.

Here's something to think about: When Obama met with Iraqi leaders, he asked them to wait on making any agreements on US troop withdrawals until after the new president took office. He stands at the podium every day and talks about American lives lost in Iraq, when he may have very well contributed to the loss by delaying troop withdrawals.

Troops won't stand between him and the white house, nor will citizens... I'm not sure what will. A few months ago, I thought Hillary was the one driven by pure ambition, now I'm not so sure.

[francejamie]

Or perhaps, they can still preserve and work toward one day owning and running their own company, and accruing a little personal wealth, and taking a personal trip to Paris on their own behalf, and not have to count on the government welfare check that they will never exceed nor do better than it's minimal expectation of having a pulse, and they will not have to be discouraged with the realization that they have absolutley no hope of ever doing better, no matter their level of creative effort or energy. Your olive drab world of mediocrity for all is my expectation of what Hell on Earth realized would look like....

except of course that you are ignoring all the people who have incomes bellow $250K who are taxpayers who will pay less taxes because of this. That's that whole "tax cuts for everyone under $250K" part.

[DarylB]

Or perhaps, they can still preserve and work toward one day owning and running their own company, and accruing a little personal wealth, and taking a personal trip to Paris on their own behalf, and not have to count on the government welfare check that they will never exceed nor do better than it's minimal expectation of having a pulse, and they will not have to be discouraged with the realization that they have absolutley no hope of ever doing better, no matter their level of creative effort or energy. Your olive drab world of mediocrity for all is my expectation of what Hell on Earth realized would look like....

except of course that you are ignoring all the people who have incomes bellow $250K who are taxpayers who will pay less taxes because of this. That's that whole "tax cuts for everyone under $250K" part.


I'm not ignoring a thing, I'm simply calling it a scheming, cynical lie, and the American people are stupider than I ever dreamed possible for buying into it... you included. As I've said before, I'm documenting at this point, Anne Frank style, which is unfortunately the best I can do in this Brave New World ......... to provide you with an after-the-fact "I told you so".

Jimmy Carter II, here we come.

[francejamie]

I'm not ignoring a thing, I'm simply calling it a scheming, cynical lie, and the American people are stupider than I ever dreamed possible for buying into it... you included. As I've said before, I'm documenting at this point, Anne Frank style, which is unfortunately the best I can do in this Brave New World ......... to provide you with an after-the-fact "I told you so".

Jimmy Carter II, here we come.

And I offer you the same "I told you so" when you are wrong.

[chaboard]

[quote=Dharma;47730]


You honestly believe this guy was a 'plant?' Somehow the Republican party knew years in advance that Obama would be canvassing that particular neighborhood, so they moved him in ahead of time like a sleeper agent, ready to pounce? How is that possible?


Oh good lord - what an illogical leap. Without taking a position either way on whether he's a plant, it's pretty **** obvious that the theory that he WAS one does NOT even remotely require THAT. Much easier to find supporter already in area (son of fellow Keating Five criminal, perhaps? ) and, um, plant him.



To borrow a quote from Mr. T, I pity the fool. The Obama spin machine is trying to turn him into the 2008 version of Willie Horton. I am sure when Joe made those statements he had no idea how deep an $800M campaign would go to turn his life upside down.


That's a mighty strong charge. From where I sat the *media* went after Joe....what revelatons do you claim came from the "Obama spin machine" rather than the independent media? I'm pretty sure the fact that he wasn't a plumber, the fact that he is a tax cheat, the fact that he wasn't an uncommitted voter as he tried to pass himself off as, and the fact that he would actuallly pay LESS tax under Obama's plan than McCain's....I'm pretty sure ALL of those facts came from sources other than the Obama campaign. You have evidence to the contrary? Put up or quit smearing.



Whether he has a license or not, whether he paid his taxes or not, do you think poor Joe deserves what he got? I don't.


I'm not sure. But let's not forget that it wasn't the *Obama* campaign that tried to use him as the stunt of the week. Obama took 5 minutes on the campaign trail to talk honestly heart to heart about an issue with an average Joe (pun intended) despite the fact that the guy was hostile (imagine McCain doing the same...you can't). McCain decided to make Joe the focus of a Presidential debate broadcast to tens of millions of Americans. It wasn't Obama who mentioned Joe a dozen or so times, now was it?


This just shows how well-funded and ruthless the Obama campaign is. He doesn't care who he has to steamroll on the way to the white house.


No. But you just revealed how far from anything even remotely "independent" YOU are.



Here's something to think about: When Obama met with Iraqi leaders, he asked them to wait on making any agreements on US troop withdrawals until after the new president took office.
]

Not only are you not an independent, you are now repeatingly poorly-sourced false propaganda as if it were fact. Have you no shame at all?



He stands at the podium every day and talks about American lives lost in Iraq, when he may have very well contributed to the loss by delaying troop withdrawals.


There is one candidate in this race who DEFINITELY helped delay troop withdrawals...and is PROUD of it. It is NOT Obama. Deal with the inconvenient truth. Do you even THINK about what you're posting? Surely you're aware that McCain has opposed troop withdrawals, aren't you? You can't even claim ignorance here...you are DAMNING Obama for something that - even if true (and it's not) - is something YOUR candidate considers one off his biggest accomplishments! How hypocritical can one possibly be?



Troops won't stand between him and the white house, nor will citizens... I'm not sure what will. A few months ago, I thought Hillary was the one driven by pure ambition, now I'm not so sure.

There's one candidate in this race who has reversed himself on EVERY major principle he has claimed to believe in, in order to gain the White House. There is one candidate in this race who has decided to run the same race of personal destruction that was once run against him and even hired the same people to do it. There's one candidate in this race who has placed self over country by picking a totally incompetent Veep. There's one candidate in this race who - staring down the barrel of a possible Great Depression - put his own electoral stunts over being part of a solution.

All of those are ultimate acts of egomaniacal ambition. None were committed by Obama.

[Ankur]

the REAL take-away message here. Joe isn't running for office, he has simply been run over by the trampling left wing media mob to force down the doors of the Oval Office.


If anybody mocked or trampled 'Joe', it is John McCain. He used the poor single dad to gain few points ( called him rich and congratulated him in front of 60 million viewers) and not only he not gain those few points but threw 'Joe' under the bus called 'dirty politics' brought to you by beloved GOP ticket. John McCain not only should stop using 'Joe' but apologize in public.

Shame on McCain.

[chaboard]

A few months ago, I thought Hillary was the one driven by pure ambition, now I'm not so sure.

On that topic, let's not forget what John McCain said of himself:



"I didn't decide to run for president to start a national crusade for the political reforms I believed in or to run a campaign as if it were some grand act of patriotism. In truth, I wanted to be president because it had become my ambition to be president. . . . In truth, I'd had the ambition for a long time."



And that was *before* he sold out everything he claimed to believe in to get a nomination.

To be fair, though, perhaps he was lying. It wouldn't be the first time.

[JoeCiulla]

John McCain not only should stop using 'Joe' but apologize in public.

Shame on McCain.

So you fall into the Dharma camp, you think Joe was a 'sleeper agent' planted years ago in that neighborhood?

Maybe there's another 'Joe' right here in Cary just hoping that Obama cruises through the beige city.

Right or wrong, the guy asked a very good question, the question on a lot of Americans' minds.

The response was "hey, let's spread it around." Are you more disappointed in Joe, or in the answer to Joe?

[DarylB]

John McCain not only should stop using 'Joe' but apologize in public.

Shame on McCain.

So you fall into the Dharma camp, you think Joe was a 'sleeper agent' planted years ago in that neighborhood?

Maybe there's another 'Joe' right here in Cary just hoping that Obama cruises through the beige city.
I too am a plant... I've been placed here in Cary by the Republican National Committee in anticipation of the arrival of the 2056 Democratic candidate, as yet unborn and unnamed, and my instruction is to ask her (how I know that - read the PNAC!) an embarrassing question about medicare. I'm a very patient plant.


Right or wrong, the guy asked a very good question, the question on a lot of Americans' minds.

The response was "hey, let's spread it around." Are you more disappointed in Joe, or in the answer to Joe?
I guess you have to drink some left-coast Kool-Aid to forget that!

[JoeCiulla]

I too am a plant... I've been placed here in Cary by the Republican National Committee in anticipation of the arrival of the 2056 Democratic candidate, as yet unborn and unnamed, and my instruction is to ask her (how I know that - read the PNAC!) an embarrassing question about medicare. I'm a very patient plant.


I knew it!!!! I didn't get selected for plan duty, but am hoping one of my kids can qualify. My oldest will be able to vote in the next election, and he will want to ask how America is going to pay off $15 Trillion in debt.

[DarylB]

I too am a plant... I've been placed here in Cary by the Republican National Committee in anticipation of the arrival of the 2056 Democratic candidate, as yet unborn and unnamed, and my instruction is to ask her (how I know that - read the PNAC!) an embarrassing question about medicare. I'm a very patient plant.


I knew it!!!! I didn't get selected for plan duty, but am hoping one of my kids can qualify. My oldest will be able to vote in the next election, and he will want to ask how America is going to pay off $15 Trillion in debt.

Read your PNAC, man! How are you ever going to be effective in completing "the plan" if you don't keep up? Certainly you need to know that Barry Soetoro's election prospects are simply in keepig with the timeline, to ruin the economy, install socialism, and reward terrorism so that the people can finally see the effects of their hedonism, in all their glory. There is, after all, a plan and a planner, and the final millenium of glory to follow is at hand.... Dick Cheney, we're so glad you've got our butts covered, and that you've got that "National Treasure" kind of knowledge and forsight, I'd hate to think all this suffering "We the People" are about to experience was going to be all for naught!

Oh, and by the way, read PNAC page 11-4(c), subsection 27.... we're eventually going to pay off the entire $37 Trillion national debt (you forgot to include the Soetoro nationalized terror insurance [aka Protection money] plan and bailout of 2010) with a loan from Zimbawe! The more you know.....

[Brent]

I knew it!!!! I didn't get selected for plan[t] duty...

I can see it now...

2012. Presidential candidate Larry Craig, during a debate, states, "You know, I was in Cary, North Carolina just last week and I was talking with Joe the Plant. He said he wished he could pay less in taxes. My opponent, Representative Mahoney, wants Joe to pay more in taxes. I would cut Joe's taxes. And also his son's, who is now old enough to vote".

[Don]

Or perhaps, they can still preserve and work toward one day owning and running their own company, and accruing a little personal wealth, and taking a personal trip to Paris on their own behalf, and not have to count on the government welfare check that they will never exceed nor do better than it's minimal expectation of having a pulse, and they will not have to be discouraged with the realization that they have absolutley no hope of ever doing better, no matter their level of creative effort or energy. Your olive drab world of mediocrity for all is my expectation of what Hell on Earth realized would look like....

except of course that you are ignoring all the people who have incomes bellow $250K who are taxpayers who will pay less taxes because of this. That's that whole "tax cuts for everyone under $250K" part.

But what happens when business/corporate taxes go up?

If Food Lion's taxes go up what does that do to the cost of a gallon of milk or a loaf of bread?

If Exxon's taxes go up what does that do to the cost of gasoline?

If SAS's taxes go up what does that do to employee salaries/benefits?

If Burger King's taxes go up what does that do to the cost of that new mushroom swiss steakhouse burger I love?

If "everyone under $250K" gets a tax cut, but prices for goods and services go up, or I don't get that pay raise because the company I work for has to pay more taxes what good is it?

[chaboard]

But what happens when business/corporate taxes go up?

If Food Lion's taxes go up what does that do to the cost of a gallon of milk or a loaf of bread?

If Exxon's taxes go up what does that do to the cost of gasoline?

If SAS's taxes go up what does that do to employee salaries/benefits?

If Burger King's taxes go up what does that do to the cost of that new mushroom swiss steakhouse burger I love?


According to basic Econ 101 theory......the most likely answer to each of these questions is "nothing".

Come on, didn't anybody on the rightwing pay any attention in freshman econ? The theory is that prices are set based on supply/demand curves and are already maximized at any given point in time due to seller self-interest.

I know no one on either side really believes in their gut most of the crap they teach in Econ 101 anymore....but aren't you folks who worship markets at least supposed to pay lip service to it?

;)



If "everyone under $250K" gets a tax cut, but prices for goods and services go up, or I don't get that pay raise because the company I work for has to pay more taxes what good is it?

In case you haven't noticed....prices have been going up pretty **** well regularly WITHOUT tax increases. And - at least partially - it's BECAUSE of the lack of tax revenue. All this federal debt and national borrowing devalues the dollar and makes it worth less, driving prices up.