Crime in Cary?

[Wuptdo]

A few days ago the N&O reported on an increase in crime in Cary. Chief Hunter made the following rebuttal:

http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/story/1634740p-7854188c.html

However, two nights ago in my neighborhood, someone broke into a garage and stole a car. I quess that will be another statistic too. :roll:

Ok, here is the original N&O story:

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1621610p-7835044c.html

Maybe a little less focus on traffic and a little more on solving crimes.

Wuptdo B-)

[kellyc]

Perhaps before spewing yournonsense about the Cary PD..you could actually do something and learn a little about them. There are only about 10-12 officers dedicated to traffic problems...the rest are beat officers. The last murder we had in Cary was closed within a couple of days with both suspects in custody. I think the Cary PD is doing as good of a job as possible with the resources they have.

[johnb]

Wow.....they let you burn off a few rounds on full auto and for the price of a couple clips of ammo they get the equivalent of the Wendy's guy....neat stuff...

[kellyc]

Wow.....they let you burn off a few rounds on full auto and for the price of a couple clips of ammo they get the equivalent of the Wendy's guy....neat stuff...

No I just happened to have taken the time to have learned a little about them. They do have probelms. They are seriously undermanned for the size of this city. They do the best they can. They happen to have one of those jobs, that your damned if you do, and dammed if you dont.

However Wupto is one of those who doesn't support the police department and thinks its an unnecessary expense.


Kelly

PS... I didnt shoot the entire clip. It scared the crap out of me. However I have been handcuffed a couple of times....I kind of liked that!

[Don]

You Go Kelly!

As someone who is broken into REGULARLY, I know for a fact the Cary PD is doing all they can to prevent and solve crimes. I have seen them staking out my shop, I have been up here at 2:00 am to find them here checking on my shop, and I constantly find "love notes" from them popped through the drop slot informing me they were here.

Cary PD can't be everywhere all the time. Maybe citizens/business owners should take some responsibility - ie. security systems, dog, etc..

nononsense indeed Kelly. I would ask Wup to list SPECIFICALLY what Chief Hunter is doing wrong.....although this would probably result in a bunch of rhetoric.

We ARE one of the safest places to live - this Doesn't mean we don't have any crime.

[Don]

However I have been handcuffed a couple of times....I kind of liked that!

Really? I thought this would hurt. Why did you enjoy it Kel? :wink:

[kellyc]

However I have been handcuffed a couple of times....I kind of liked that!

Really? I thought this would hurt. Why did you enjoy it Kel? :wink:

They do hurt...I got some decent bruises from them....but it still was pretty cool.

Kelly

[Brent]

The poll doesn't have the option I would vote for, something like "Yes, absolutely, but becoming less so".

Cary is indeed a safe place overall. Official terminology aside, Cary has become a city (terminology JohnB is fond of using :) ). That means we are getting some city amenities and some city problems, notable among them is crime.

I think the CPD does an excellent job, but I think they have their work cut out for them. I think the town/city needs to recognize this and recognize that we need to invest in increased prevention, detection and enforcement. Otherwise, the "safest city" bragging isn't going to last much longer.

[johnb]

They do hurt...I got some decent bruises from them....but it still was pretty cool.

What's next? Leather mask with a zipper over the mouth? :roll:

[kellyc]

They do hurt...I got some decent bruises from them....but it still was pretty cool.

What's next? Leather mask with a zipper over the mouth? :roll:

Why is that something you have tried, and enjoyed? No...The reason I got hurt was I was trying to wiggle out of the cuffs. I didnt realize that they would get tighter the more youmoved your wrist. Thus the bruises...I was helping in a training exercise with as a bad person.

[johnb]

They do have probelms. They are seriously undermanned for the size of this city. They do the best they can. They happen to have one of those jobs, that your damned if you do, and dammed if you dont.

There is a tendancy among some departments and it is visible, to militarize the police, ie, arming and outfitting them as if they are some type of special ops outfit. Combined with this siege mentality they inculcate amongst themselves it can be dangerous. That is one of the major problems with the LAPD. Interestingly enough the LAPD got where it is because it too was undermanned and it's lack of numbers was compensated for with fewer foot patrols, more impersonal/detached patroling methods, an intense "us vs. them" attitude, and the creation of "elite" military style units in the department.

Look at places which have reduced crime succesfully and that's not the way to do it. NYC actually did an amazingly good job of reducing crime by putting more cops on foot patrols and more aggressive ticketing of minor crimes. Why aren't there cops walking a beat on Chatham Street and the downtown neighborhood, for example?

Also, notice the commment you made Kelly, they are undermanned. Our city council could take that 40,000-50,000 dollars they're planning on gifting to the Cary Dog Owners Club and INSTEAD hire one beat cop. What's more important? Hell, for the cost of the Aquatics Palace they could hire a LOT of cops. They're not gonna though, hiring cops and firefighters doesn't buy them any votes.

For that matter, I really don't see a need for the CPD to have the "assault weapons" frankly. The odds are quite small that they'd ever be used and the potential for misuse is probably higher than the potential for anything good to come from them. The priority should be on basic policing, beat cops with pistols walking some areas, biking others, and maintaining high visibility across the city. THAT is a deterant and provides maximum ROI on the expenditure. No attack on you, but taking civilians out to zip through a clip or two of ammo on full auto does nothing to impact crime stats in Cary. I see no reason for the CPD to have anything beyond a 9mm.

As an aside, weapons training requires a level of familiarity that comes from constant usage. If they need more training and time on the range they should spend it with their service revolvers. One thing that most folks don't realize is that of those 1000+ deaths in Iraq, 1/4 are not from combat or terrorist attacks. They're from accidents. Handling, cleaning, repairing, and other mundane tasks associated with high dollar military equipment causes a significant portion of those deaths. And that's from folks who are around those items as a part of their daily jobs. The potential for someone who isn't continually exposed and comfortable with them having an accident worries me. Frankly, if I were the Chief, I would never have allowed you and Don or any other civilian to get your hands on anything other than the regular service revolvers and even then I'd not feel too comfortable with it. There are civilian gun clubs and ranges where you can pop off a few clips on your own time where the liability issue is not a city concern. Once you've seen people do a few stupid things with automatic weapons it will change your attitude considerably I assure you. All it takes is one civilian encountering a weapon malfunction and getting nervous, turning around and pointing the weapon somewhere other than down range for the potential for bad things to happen to become uncomfortably high.

[kellyc]

They do have beat cops...The bike guys are often in downtown Cary as well.

As for the dog park, adding another officer to the force would be about the only thing right now to convine me to give up the dog park. However another officer is more than 50 thousand. Their starting salary is a little over 30 Thousand. Add their benefits, equipment and car....Im guess ing you could put one on patrol for 75k.

I think the town needs to forgoe the aquatics center and give Chief Hunter a blank check.

Kelly

[johnb]

Well then, $50,000 is a good start then isn't it? Especially if it's a cop who does not get a car, a cop assigned solely to walk the area around downtown Cary. A foot patrol through the neighborhood, where he can stop and talk to the residents ( a lot of whom are immigrants from countries where the police are flat out the biggest crimminals in the society ) would do more to build trust between those people and the CPD than having an anonymous uniform cruising past in a car periodically.

[kellyc]

I think the Cary PD would agree. That is one of the reasons there is a substation in the apartment complex on Wrenn Drive. The officers there do build relationships with the community. The pedal/bike cops are very well know in those neighborhoods. I agree with you about the communities. I think every officer should be assigned a neighborhood to adopt outside of their regular patrols.....But that requires money and time, and sacrifices and support from the community. In additiion people who want to see this work can take the time to develop relationships with officers themselves. It has to be a partnership to succeed.


Kelly

[Brent]

What's more important? Hell, for the cost of the Aquatics Palace they could hire a LOT of cops. They're not gonna though, hiring cops and firefighters doesn't buy them any votes.

Perhaps true...but if an enterprising candidate were to point out that CPD is being shortchanged so that we can build an aquatics palace, a dog park and water squirters in Ritter Park, and the crime rate is increasing, it certainly could cost some people some votes.

On the other hand, I can attest to the fact that pointing out that we can afford to give senior staff raises, build a parking deck for staff and build a new town hall palace, but we can't seem to afford to spend a few bucks on public safety, was ineffective in the recent past in terms of convincing a majority of council to do the right thing.

I guess we'll see what happens next.

[dhyatt]

Writing this fills me with fear of severe political repercussions but it needs to be done and someone has to do it :?

I think we need to place the blame for any increase crime where it belongs - at the feet of the criminals. I'm not prepared to go way out on a limb - yet - by pointing out the obvious but pockets of crime exist in Cary that are due to nothing more than the people that live in the general vicinity. I'm in the process of gathering a few facts and in the meantime, I have a message:

If you behave yourselves and follow our laws, you're welcome to live and work here. If you don't, then please leave.

[Karen]

Over all, yes, I feel very safe in Cary. I have for the last 14 years.

We have had several break ins in our neighborhood and I don't recall the Cary police turning a blind eye to them. In fact I received emails through our neighborhood email list with tips given by the Cary PD on crime prevention. They seemed very basic but I now do things I normally would not do if it hadn't been for these tips. Such as locking my car door even with it parked inside your garage. (we have had numerous garage/car breakins).

I'm thankful to live in a place where I'm more concerned about my car getting broken into than being a victim of a violent crime...

Karen

[Lurkie]

More power to you Don H. We have areas in Cary where the seeds of mayhem take root. Some of these problems could be solved by strictly enforcing the housing codes that are on the books.

[johnb]

Karen,

That is not an unreasonable feeling, the stats bear it out, the rate and types of crime in Cary don't justify the city deploying a swat team or other para-military style units. While the toys and trappings might be "cool" and it might be fun to burn through a few clips on full auto at the firing range, it isn't justified.

What crime exists because of immigrants could easily be addressed through the use of more foot patrols in areas with concentrations of immigrants. They aren't familiar with US laws and customs and all the details. I'm not saying we should change but just demanding a change from them by itself is sort of pointless. For example...in Mexico on a Friday or Saturday night it is not unusual for the men to sit around the central plaza in the villages and towns and drink a few beers. In the US we'd look unfavorably at a bunch of men gathered on the benches at Urban park cooking food on the grill and drinking beer. Not a big crime but having a beat cop walking the area telling them that that is a violation of open container laws wouldn't hurt. There is no such comparable law or standard in Mexico. Many of these immigrants have little social contact with native born Americans. As such, who is telling them "this isn't done here"? Seems rather basic. As someone who lived in a foreign nation for a year I can assure you picking up on all the cultural nuances of a foreign land where you don't speak the language is not always easy.

Aside from that.....every immigrant group has been comprised of people wanting to come here for the opportunities, the freedom and all that...there are also the crimminals who come in with them. The Italians were plagued with La Cosa Nostra....the Mexicans have the Latin Kings and even the Chinese have their ethnic mafia as well. Time and effective policing are how this issue gets dealt with.

[Wuptdo]

Kelly wrote:

However Wupto is one of those who doesn't support the police department and thinks its an unnecessary expense.



Sure like to know where I stated the above. I had a real good idea of taking the SRO's and moving them into a "Strike Team" coupled with a trained Mexican Cop and go after all those "gangs." Sure haven't seen much about doing something about those "gangs." (Where did all the SRO stuff go?)

However, being fiscally conservative, I do see Hunter and his support staff as being "overhead." So yes, I would like to see the Cary PD incorporated into Wake County Sheriffs Department - it removes a very expensive level of be redundant bureaucracy (include Fire Department & EMS as well). I would like to see all the "multi's" do this in Wake County (except for Raleigh). On the flip side, though it cost much more money, our children would probably educated/served (and parents much happier)if WCPSS was broken into five seperate school/tax districts.

Kelly wrote:

They are seriously undermanned for the size of this city.

Are they undermanned due to budget cuts or guys that were called up for active duty? If it is active duty, then they have to leave the positions open for these guys - no problem with that. However, since they are not paying these officers when on active duty, then use those salaries and hire additional officers on a tempory basis to make up for manpower shortages. As long as you let the "temp" know they are temps, should not be an HRC issue when the active duty guys show back up for duty with Cary PD.

Don wrote:

Cary PD can't be everywhere all the time. Maybe citizens/business owners should take some responsibility - ie. security systems, dog, etc..


Couldn't agree with you more Don! :wink:

Brent wrote:

I think the town/city needs to recognize this and recognize that we need to invest in increased prevention, detection and enforcement. Otherwise, the "safest city" bragging isn't going to last much longer.


Agreed Brent. However, this starts at the top. Does Hunter have the qualifications and the "know how" to handle "bigger" city problems. What works for a town of 90K people may not work for a town over 110K people (and growing). Why does Raleigh, Durham, and Wilimington all hire "Chief types" from big cities up North? Guess what people, Cary isn't "Mayberry" anymore.

Also, I have noticed over the years that whenever the N&O has an opportunity to "trash" Cary, they do. This is especially true since being name "best place to live" on the East Coast. I assume it is "Cary Envy." Hence the headline in the B section on 10 Sep 2004:

Theft drives crime rate up in Cary

Lurkie wrote:

We have areas in Cary where the seeds of mayhem take root. Some of these problems could be solved by strictly enforcing the housing codes that are on the books.

BINGO! Give the person a cigar! However, this is just the tip of the iceberg. Much larger social issue involved in that the "government" refuses to do anything substantical about illegal immigration. Thus Mexico's social/over-population problems are now becoming "our" problems. (Whole new thread here :wink: !)

Karen wrote:

We have had several break ins in our neighborhood and I don't recall the Cary police turning a blind eye to them.

True Karen, they do come out a take the report and do patrol da'hood. However, have you ever heard any of the neighbors actually getting their stuff back or the "pert" being caught? Also, were you one of the luckly ones the other day to get a speeding ticket? When I drove out the other day, I saw three cruisers lined up on Midenhall doing the "speed trap" thing. They do this as a "community service." To me, this is a waste of resources that could of been better utilized on Weston International Raceway. Throw in a couple of "traffic calming" devices and be done with it.

Karen wrote:
I'm thankful to live in a place where I'm more concerned about my car getting broken into than being a victim of a violent crime...


Watch tonights 6 pm news - this should be the lead story.

CARY POLICE WARN OF BUS STOP ASSAULT

About 2 miles from our homes. The paradigm for leaving all those kids at the bus stops at 6 am alone is about to change. This is not supposed to happen in Cary!

Now moving back to the main issue. I didn't write a rebuttal to the N&O, Hunter did. Therefore as a public official in the TOC, I have some questions for the "Chief."

1) Did you write your letter on your "time" or the "towns" time?
2) Did you have permission of your supervisor to write this letter?
3) Were any town resources, including data collection, used in the writing of this letter? This is to include town computers, internet, fax, or admin support.
4) Did you have any help in writing this letterfrom other members of town management or staff?
5) What measures or improvements are you making to turn "theft" around in Cary?
6) Ultimately, who bares responsibility for crime in Cary?

Hopefully, someone on the TC will have the guts to ask the serious questions. We shall see, we shall see.

Wuptdo B-)

[Cathy]

If you all think that Public Safety is being sacrificed for development schemes, then you really need to vote NO to Amendment One!
If the politicians get this, they can bypass the veto power of the citizens and borrow more money for development.
They say it's "self financing", but the truth is that it captures tax revenue increases that probably would have happened without the TIF loans, and deprives the Schools, Police and Fire, and Public Services of needed additional revenue.

Most of the TIF development will end up being more high-density housing, and THIS is where you will see a parallel between a rising crime rate and rising high density. What we will end up with is poorly designed high-density that encourages a bad element.
This is backed up by Studies done and endorsed by law enforcement groups and Government Housing Agencies.
Oscar Newman laid out the argument in his book Defensible Space.
http://www.defensiblespace.com/start.htm

His work is endorsed by HUD http://www.huduser.org/Publications/pdf/def.pdf

and Law Enforcement Agencies in England.

Cathy

[kellyc]

Kelly wrote:

However Wupto is one of those who doesn't support the police department and thinks its an unnecessary expense.



Sure like to know where I stated the above. I had a real good idea of taking the SRO's and moving them into a "Strike Team" coupled with a trained Mexican Cop and go after all those "gangs." Sure haven't seen much about doing something about those "gangs." (Where did all the SRO stuff go?)


You stated it during our budget worksessions...about doing away with the Cary PD and letting the Sheriff's Office take care of their duties. As for their undermanning...they simply have less cops on the street than a city of comperable size would normally have.

Kelly

[Don]

Yes he did Kelly.

[Don]

Don wrote:

Cary PD can't be everywhere all the time. Maybe citizens/business owners should take some responsibility - ie. security systems, dog, etc..


Couldn't agree with you more Don! :wink:

Wuptdo B-)

Then why are we starting a thread attacking the Police Dept. and Chief Hunter?

[kellyc]

Now moving back to the main issue. I didn't write a rebuttal to the N&O, Hunter did. Therefore as a public official in the TOC, I have some questions for the "Chief."

1) Did you write your letter on your "time" or the "towns" time?
2) Did you have permission of your supervisor to write this letter?
3) Were any town resources, including data collection, used in the writing of this letter? This is to include town computers, internet, fax, or admin support.
4) Did you have any help in writing this letterfrom other members of town management or staff?
5) What measures or improvements are you making to turn "theft" around in Cary?
6) Ultimately, who bares responsibility for crime in Cary?

Wuptdo B-)

The ultimate responsible party for crime is the one doing the crime.

Im curious what is your beef with the Chief? Did you recently get a speeding ticket? Your comments seem awfully personal towards him, without any basic knowledge of the police department.

There is a statistics person that works for the Police Department. They use her not only to track crimes, but also to predict when / where crimes might occur in the future. Yes, it has been successfull. They have been able to nab many thieves by using her statistics. The kids that were breaking in to the downtown businesses are an example of her success.

I highly doubt his letter went anywhere without the approval or Susan Moran. In fact to hit the mailing list as it did, it had to come from her office.

I would sugget Wup, you take the time to go thru the Citizen's Police Academy, as it seems you are allowing myths and rumors to function as facts.

[Wuptdo]

Kelly wrote:

You stated it during our budget worksessions...about doing away with the Cary PD and letting the Sheriff's Office take care of their duties

Guilty as charged and proud of it. And if I recall two council members were present also. :wink: Until this thread, I viewed what was said or done at those meetings, stayed at the meetings, except for the "official stuff." :o However, Kelly your first post in this thread was this:

However Wupto is one of those who doesn't support the police department and thinks its an unnecessary expense

Now maybe I lack an understanding of the basic English language usage, but it seems to me there is a "slight" difference in your two postings (listed above). In my last posting I entered my justification as follows:

However, being fiscally conservative, I do see Hunter and his support staff as being "overhead." So yes, I would like to see the Cary PD incorporated into Wake County Sheriffs Department - it removes a very expensive level of be redundant bureaucracy (include Fire Department & EMS as well). I would like to see all the "multi's" do this in Wake County (except for Raleigh). Wuptdo

Note to self: This is a great phrase, use it more often: redundant bureaucracy :wink:

I can't recall whether it was Kelly or Don, but someone told me the Cary PD was so undermanned because of all the active duty recalls. That is something that is not pulled out "out of the air." Also, it might of been mentioned at one of the budget meetings. If the Cary PD is undermanned, why isn't Hunter making serious noise about it to the Council or going public? Let's see, that new "city staff" parking deck is going to cost, what, $3.5 million.

DonF wrote:

Then why are we starting a thread attacking the Police Dept. and Chief Hunter

Once again, you must forgive my improper use of the vernacular. Point one. If a Army fails to take an objective, who is to blame? The troops or the General (I watched Patton the other day :wink: )? I would answer the General. The same goes for the Cary PD. Therefore it would be illogical to "attack" the Cary PD; what did they do wrong? However, if you are of the mentality of "attack" the coach, you attack the team, then that is your viewpoint, not mind. From my viewpoint, I was "criticizing" Hunter, not "attacking" him. Believe me, if I was "attacking" him, you would know the difference. :D

To me, part of being a responsible citizen in this country is to question "public figures" and their actions. Last time I checked, this was still America, and basic freedoms remain the same. If something has changed please let me know. Bottom line, Hunter is an employee of the TOC, no more, no less, and as such, should be held accountability for his actions and duties. One asks, "Who will guard the guards?" We do!

Wuptdo B-)

Meanwhile, in some office at Townhall, Susan Moran and Chief Hunter are having a good laugh. "It's working," one says.

[kellyc]

Kelly wrote:


I can't recall whether it was Kelly or Don, but someone told me the Cary PD was so undermanned because of all the active duty recalls. That is something that is not pulled out "out of the air." Also, it might of been mentioned at one of the budget meetings. If the Cary PD is undermanned, why isn't Hunter making serious noise about it to the Council or going public? Let's see, that new "city staff" parking deck is going to cost, what, $3.5 million.



Wasnt me...I have no idea who is on or off active duty at the Police Department. I think it takes guts to come out and answer to the statistics. I guess he could have dodged around and said "No Comment". It certainly would have used much less resources, but then again...you'd probably complain about that as well.

[Don]

Once again, you must forgive my improper use of the vernacular. Point one. If a Army fails to take an objective, who is to blame? The troops or the General (I watched Patton the other day :wink: )? I would answer the General. The same goes for the Cary PD. Therefore it would be illogical to "attack" the Cary PD; what did they do wrong? However, if you are of the mentality of "attack" the coach, you attack the team, then that is your viewpoint, not mind. From my viewpoint, I was "criticizing" Hunter, not "attacking" him. Believe me, if I was "attacking" him, you would know the difference. :D



So what army here is failing? The Cary PD? Get real man. Let's see, we have less crime than darn near anywhere else and are one of the safest places to live in America. Yep, you're right. We gotta do something and fast!!!! The sky is falling - One of Wup's neighbors was foolish enough to leave their keys in the garage with the car!!!!! Lynch the chief!! It's the Chiefs fault!!!!!

Please.

I would be rewarding an Army that was able to achieve such impressive results with such little resources.

[Don]

but then again...you'd probably complain about that as well.

You nailed that one Kelly!

[hollyL]

When I had my signs stolen Cary police sent out 2 uniformed officers. They were professional/polite (esp. considering the fact that the signs that were stolen were speaking out against their employer). I certainly can't say how they felt but if it was me I'd be a bit irritated that I spent time in the academy to take a 30 minutes report about a 'stupid' sign theft. I'd like to see some administrative type person serve these types of functions to free up the "real" cops to investigate more serious and/or violent crimes. Should be cheaper too.

[Wuptdo]

Kelly wrote:

I would sugget Wup, you take the time to go thru the Citizen's Police Academy, as it seems you are allowing myths and rumors to function as facts.


Kelly, what "myths & rumors" are you accusing me of using? I made reference to an N&O story, that was based on the SBI's Annual Crime report for 2003. Hunter wrote a letter to the N&O (and the Cary News) in rebuttal. Why and with what resources is all am asking? Highlight of N&O story:

Property crime is down statewide at 2.4%
Property crime is up 6% in Durham and 4% in Cary.

Why Kelly? Why Don? Why is property crime down statewide in NC, but up in Cary? The facts don't lie, unless you don't acknowledge them. Oh that's right, I'm just a civilian who doesn't understand what is happening in the streets of Cary. Does Hunter know? Does Susan Moran know? Sorry folks, Hunter's LTE is equal to "circling the wagons" or the best "defence is offence." Curious minds what to know - why and what is Hunter doing about it. This is America, not North Korea, so asking "public officals" to justify their actions, does not end with execution of the questioner.

Wuptdo B-)

[kellyc]

Kelly, what "myths & rumors" are you accusing me of using? I made reference to an N&O story, that was based on the SBI's Annual Crime report for 2003. Hunter wrote a letter to the N&O (and the Cary News) in rebuttal. Why and with what resources is all am asking? Highlight of N&O story:

Property crime is down statewide at 2.4%
Property crime is up 6% in Durham and 4% in Cary.


Looking at the actual reports in 2001 there were 2185 property crimes in Cary. In 2002 there were 2142. A 2% decrease in property crimes. (I am sure Wup, you sent your way to go email to the Chief on this statistic, correct?) There were 2,244 property crimes in 2003 a 4.5 percent increase since 2002.

So lets take a look at the other bigger cities in North Carolina. Their property crimes for 2002-2003
http://sbi2.jus.state.nc.us/crp/public/2003/Publications/2003%20Annual%20Summary.pdf


Asheville up 4% (4657)
Charlotte up 6% (11534)
Durham up 6% (13621)
Fayetville up 4% (9648)
Greensboro up 1% (13758)
High Point up 4% (5907)
Raleigh down 6% (14771)
Wilmington down 7% (7356)
Winston Salem up 6% (13943)
Gaston County Police down 16% (1757
Cary up 4% (2,244)


In fact even with our 4.5% increase we still had less property crimes than any of the reporting agencies, except the Gaston County Police. We should be patting our Police Department on the back instead of sticking the knife in there. Any reporter can make statistics read any way they want them to. If you look at Violent crimes for the same areas we had the least number there too...

Asheville 410
Charlotte 7197
Durham 1661
Fayettville 1229
Gaston County Police 210
Greensboro 1,547
High Point 785
Raleigh 1999
Wilmington 819
Winston-Salem 1580
Cary 109

Looking at those statistics... I think the Cary Police is doing a damned good job. Again Wup, myths versus actual facts. Statistics can be made to look anyway a reporter wants to look at them.

[kellyc]

Here is another statistic for you for the same cities on the number of sworn officers per 1000 citizens (total # of officers). I also threw in some local cities around us for the heck of it.

http://sbi2.jus.state.nc.us/crp/public/2003/LEPerson/LEPerpopratagytrd/LEPerPopRatAgyTrd.htm


Asheville 2.4 (170)
Charlotte 2.3 (1510)
Durham 2.3 (445)
Fayettville 2.3 (296)
Greensboro 2.3 (500)
High Point 2.3 (199)
Raleigh 2.2 (648)
Wilmington 2.6 (229)
Winston Salem 2.5 (460)
Gaston County Police 1.6 (137)
Cary 1.3 (135)
Apex 1.4 (34)
Clayton 3.6 (36)
Garner 2.7 (52)
Morrisville 4.3 (26)
Fuquay-Varina 2.6 (24)
Holly Springs 2.1 (24)
Wendell 2.4 (11)

More with less right Wup??? Facts versus Myths

Less Crimes, Less officers......Sounds like the Cary Police have things about right.

[Wuptdo]

Why thank you Kelly. Did Susan provide you with the data or did you look it up yourself? Yes, I can spin Stats too, but will hold off.

Thank you for the motivation and the change in attitude. :wink:

Wuptdo B-)

[kellyc]

No I got the statistics myself. Susan doesnt like me, and wouldnt help me find my way out of a fire.

[johnb]

Kelly,

You of course realize that you've got the cart before the horse don't you? Cities with higher crime hire more cops to combat the crime. Cities with lower crime hire fewer cops because the necessity for hiring more is lacking. Cary could go to 2.5 cops per thousand residents, but would it make a statistically significant impact on already low crime rates? Probably not.

Our low crime rate is not necessarily because of the police. This is the same fallacy the education establishment engages in when giving Wild Bill an award for demographic stats totally beyond his control. Our low crime rate is a factor of Cary's high family income, high property values, and high education levels. Upper middle class adults are not likely to be out snatching purses, shopping at street corner crack markets, or knocking off the locally Quickie Mart. Property crimes are more commonly the provenance of poeple in lower income brackets. The Cary PD's role in reducing or keeping that rate flat is to maintain maximum visibility to block the importation of that crime from neighboring areas. That doesn't mean Cary residents are immune the capability to commit crime by any means, but let's be honest, an OB/GYN living in Wellesly is statistically far less likely to be engaged in a car jacking that a crackhead with no job from Durham.

[Don]

Why Kelly? Why Don? Why is property crime down statewide in NC, but up in Cary?

You might want to take a look at our population growth. If we add 3-4000 people every year (which we are), then wouldn't one expect the amount of crime would increase as well? What about the growth of Holly Springs (fastest growing town in NC this year) and Morrisville (fastest growing town in NC last year)? Wouldn't that impact Cary's crime as well?

Oh that's right, I'm just a civilian who doesn't understand what is happening in the streets of Cary.

No Comment

why and what is Hunter doing about it.

Why don't you ask him before going off on a rant?

This is America, not North Korea, so asking "public officals" to justify their actions, does not end with execution of the questioner.

Again, have you spoken to Chief Hunter? No? How Come?

[kellyc]

I completely agree with you John, but I also think blasting our Police Chief over the 4.5% increase...is a little out of bounds. Crime rates are going to go up and down, that happens everywhere.

I think some people love to look for a boogeyman behind every cornere, and fail to put the statistics in perspective. Cary is less than a quarter of the violent crimes of our nearest competitor.

I can always replace a car, or a lawnmower. If the violent crimes were picking up at that same pace, Wup...I'd be right there with you questioning it. I certainly picked up on the rape numbers going from 7 in 2002, to 17 in 2003. That is a concern, and I hope its not a trend that continues. If it does, then yes we need to be asking whats going on. 17 rapes to me is 17 too many.

[johnb]

That is an interesting thing, the rise in the crime rate.

Without seeing the stats of solved crimes I would be hypothosizing but what the heck.....

1-the influx of immigrants will certainly lift the crime stats. Any immigrant group will have a certain crimminal element within it.

2-if the Raleigh or Durham PD begin cracking down with more aggressive policing of known offenders (keeping an eye on known perps) they will have an inducement to slip across city borders to areas where they are unknown to the local police.

The first group will need the increased attention of the PD through foot patrols and one on one contact.

On the second, it'd be interesting to see how effectively the various PD's alert one another to that type of migratory crimminal. If at all.

Within reasonable limits there isn't a lot of power within the PD to change crime stats aside from the number of solved cases. Most of what they can do is increased visibility and aggressive policing of minor crimes. What the heck could the CPD do to stop someone from getting drunk and starting a bar fight? They're cops, not preachers. They pick up the pieces and arrest the perps. It's the preachers job to launch the fire and brimstone and change the heart.

The only crimes in Cary I see the CPD NOT addressing are those committed by the Cary City Council. I, for one, would support brutal corporal punishment for fiscally profligate politicians. Drag 'em out back and let the NYPD teach the CPD how to "Abner Louima" the perp. Repeat offenders get the NYPD Special, the "Amadou Diallo" treatment.