Going to the dogs... [Archive]

hollyL

10-05-2004, 12:47 PM

I attended the 22 Sept P&D committee meeting mostly for the purpose of hearing the discussion about the political signs. That was quite interesting in and of itself. Briefly...staff wrote changes to the political sign amendment similar to ones which my 12 years old neighbor would write so they sent them back to the drawing board (no crayons this time). My republican buddy M. Joyce gave 'em hell about making ordinances based on opinion instead of constitutionality. He said "ACLU" about 10 times which encouraged Nels that ask him if "he joined the ACLU". Quite funny really. Anyway...

They stated to talk about the Dog Park which is included in the Bartley Park master plan. Cost was $73,000 for the dog park and included a badge system, and apparently a new Bentley (just kidding obviously). That sounded like a lot of money for a dog park so I decided to look into it. Here is the response I got from Mrs. Henderson when I asked for some more info:
"Dear Ms. Nielsen,
...You will not find the information you are seeking on the web because we have not yet completed our plan. Our staff has researched other facilities and is working closely with the folks that comprise Cary Dog Park Club to evaluate options and develop a recommended plan. Feel free to forward any information or future questions that you may have directly to me.
Sincerely,
Mary"

So how am I suppose to make a public comment on 14 Oct during public hearings if they don't tell me anything about the park?
How the hell is the council voting on something that has no plan?
Since when does the Cary dog Park Club represent me in this or any other issue?

Here's my beef:

1. "Recouping the cost". This is the best one. The staff person talking said they would be charging a registration fee for the dog park to "recoup their costs". "Their" meaning the town I presume. This is very curious as who is "their" but the taxpayers? Why would I pay a registration fee to pay myself back? This idea that "the town" is some separate entity that exists because of something besides the citizens and taxes that we pay is getting on my nerves. WE ARE THE TOWN! If they said they wanted to charge a registration fee to maintain the park or something - OK - but to say recoup the costs to the town by charging the people who pay for the town is bizarre and stupid.

2. A badge system is a dumb idea. I really can't think of 1 reason this would be useful. It's expensive, has no purpose and is a waste of money. This is typical Cary wanting to make things so much more complicated and expensive than necessary. You don't need that kind of crap to have a dog park...you need a fence, some places to sit, a bit of shade and it would be nice to have a water source (although some parks you bring your own water).

3. Vaccinations. It is not only my opinion but the opinion of the American Animal Hospital Association (AAHA), the American Veterinary Medical Association and many vets that vaccinations every year are totally unnecessary. It is widely accepted and scientifically tested/proven that vaccinations have an estimated minimum efficacy of greater than 3 years. There is absolutely NO reason to vaccinate dogs every year - it does not help them at all and can cause more harm than good. Requiring shots (besides rabies) to enter the park is based solely on someone's ignorance to current veterinarian recommendations on vaccination. Regardless anyway, if *their* dog is vaccinated why are they worried about my dog who hasn't been vaccinated as their dog should be protected by their stupid vaccinations! Why create this expensive administrative overhead to require proof of yearly shots when almost all, if not all, the major vet organizations don't even agree with it?

4. Cary Dog Park Club. In the past I have been sympathetic to their efforts but I was a little irked in finding the they are *not* nonprofit as they claim on their website, in their newsletter and otherwise in public. From their attorney: "The Cary Dog Park Club ("CDPC") has not yet filed its Application for Recognition of Exemption with the IRS. [Aug 27, 2004]".

I'm 100% for a dog park in Cary but if they pull this crap I'll just drive to Raleigh thank you.

Brent

10-05-2004, 01:03 PM

So how am I suppose to make a public comment on 14 Oct during public hearings if they don't tell me anything about the park?

Well, I expect they're hoping you won't. Sometimes public comment of "Your Staff should be ashamed of themselves for scheduling a public hearing when they haven't even made public the information to comment on; I hope you schedule another pubilc hearing after your Staff gets their act together" can be effective.

How the hell is the council voting on something that has no plan?

Excellent question. On the other hand, even if they had a plan, I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in it, because it could change with the wind. Still, this is a good point and maybe it ought to be made in a public hearing. :wink:

Since when does the Cary dog Park Club represent me in this or any other issue?

They don't, unless you're one of their members. They're a special interest and the dog park is being built for them, so that is who Staff is talking to. Just like they talked with CASL for the soccer park and just like they'll talk with the swim club for the aquatics center. Special interests rule, not public interest.

P.S. Sounds like a good letter to the editor.

kellyc

10-05-2004, 01:11 PM

I was under the impression that the dog park was going in North Cary Park. In fact that is what they voted for with the last budget. The one at Bartley may be for a second dog park?

johnb

10-05-2004, 01:12 PM

They're doing the same stunt the TSC and the CSC, CASL, and all the other thieves did to get the taxpayers on the hook for their park/pool/facility.

It's a tactic that has worked over and over.

Holly, the comment about "their" costs is correct and it spills the beans on what is going on. The Cary Dog Club is not a non-profit. That allows them to hide membership and the sources of their money and the amount of money they have.

We are now going to be put on the hook to pay $70,000 for a facility for a for profit group that may very well have the $70,000 themselves for all we know. "Their" in this context is the taxpayers, we are being robbed to pay for a facility for a private, for profit, organization. Imagine the "outrage" if the city bought a spot of land and built a building free of charge for Walmart.

Welcome to the theives market Holly.

john

kellyc

10-05-2004, 02:20 PM

It would be intresting to see what the heck is going on.

hollyL

10-05-2004, 04:36 PM

I was under the impression that the dog park was going in North Cary Park. In fact that is what they voted for with the last budget. The one at Bartley may be for a second dog park?

Looks like there will be a few....from March 1, 2004 council minutes:

Dog Park Update - Mary Henderson thanked Jeff Boucher, Cara Lewis and others with Dog Park, Inc. for their efforts in bringing to the board information; ideas and philosophies for consideration of a dog park in Cary. Staff has been reviewing costs and criteria to incorporate a 1.5-2 acre dog park in the existing North Cary Park. The approximate expense of $50,000-$60,000 would consist mostly of fencing, concrete and benches (no lights). The North Cary Park upgrade has been included in the FY05 Capital Budget recommendations. A dog park is also being considered for the future Bartley park. Items for consideration in setting the user fees and policies for the dog park include: required dog license; size of dog; fee adjust if dog is spade/neutered; single/multiple dogs; non-resident fee. Board members also noted the need for neighborhood input. Ms. Henderson indicated that staff will further review these issues and include in the discussions animal control and finance and report back to this board with staff's recommendation. If the North Cary Park upgrade is approved in the budget, staff will move forward quickly on this project. Board members also applauded Jeff Boucher and members of Dog Park, Inc. for working responsibly with the board in bringing this project to its fruition. Board members were in agreement in supporting the membership fee structure. Jeff Boucher recommended the membership fee as well and strongly recommended that staff look into lighting as well.

hollyL

10-05-2004, 05:39 PM

Maybe I'm confused because I thought that there was a public hearing when the committee sends it to the council. This is the process I was told for the political signs so maybe it is not applicable here??

The meeting minutes from the P&D meeting says "TOWN COUNCIL MEETING 10/14/04".

I'm not sure exactly what this means. Mary Henderson (parks staff) sent me an email "Council meeting is not the appropriate meeting to discuss the specifics of the Bartley Park Master Plan". So what is it going to town counil meeting for on the 14th? I'm assuming it is for approval but heck I don't know!

Brent

10-06-2004, 08:15 AM

A typical process is:

- New item goes to council. A public hearing may be held at that meeting or a public hearing may be scheduled for the future.

- Public hearing occurs before council. Council refers the item to the appropriate board/commission (P&Z, PRCR, etc.) for committee discussion, evaluation and vote, with report back to council. Sometimes there is opportunity for additional public input at the board/commission meeting, sometimes there isn't. Board/commission is supposed to consider the public input that occurred before council.

- Item goes back to council with board/commission recommendation + Staff recommendation, Council makes a decision

Some items are different; that's a typical process for many items.

hollyL

10-06-2004, 10:22 AM

Thanks Brent...I'm having a call with Mary Henderson today see if I can get the full path this is taking. Regardless, I think they should be able to detail where the $73,000 is coming from and allow the public to comment (either at the meeting or in a letter or something) before they make a decision on it.

Item goes back to council with board/commission recommendation + Staff recommendation, Council makes a decision

So what if staff changes their recommendation completely after the public hearing? Probably a stupid question.

I'm still confused how they can make a decision when they are still working on a plan. It seems this is just a blank check here. I'll get more of the info today anyway.

Wuptdo

10-06-2004, 11:51 AM

I can't resist, but.....

Who let the Dogs out,
Who let the Dogs out,
woof, woof, woof, woof,
woof, woof, woof, woof

you know the rest. \:D/

I had a website link for this, but after watching, I finally realized what the "song" was actually about. I don't think most members of CP would of appreciated a music video featuring older, mostly overweight women with bad teeth, wearing reveiling night wear. Community standard must be kept at all times. :-''

Holly, thank you for your work on this. %%-

Wuptdo B-)

Who will guard the guards! Old Roman Saying

Brent

10-06-2004, 02:10 PM

So what if staff changes their recommendation completely after the public hearing? Probably a stupid question.

So what if pigs fly? :lol: (sorry, couldn't resist). Seriously, in the "typical" process, the initial staff recommendation is usually "Staff recommends that this be referred to [the appropriate board/commission]" (as opposed to recommending approval or not, which happens when it gets back to council). Usually. Your mileage may vary.

I'm still confused how they can make a decision when they are still working on a plan. It seems this is just a blank check here. I'll get more of the info today anyway.

Me, too. Maybe they just weren't counting on that busybody, hollyl, to be paying attention? :) :wink: I'll be interested in the info.

Wuptdo

10-06-2004, 02:20 PM

Holly - isn't fun to shine the light in those dark corners! :D :D

We have several people here are excellent coach's when it come to our town's government. (Good job, Brent!)

Wuptdo B-)

hollyL

10-06-2004, 04:48 PM

Here are my notes from my conversation with Mary Henderson:

The masterplan is how they will use the land and does not contain specifics. It is more of a concept and includes no funding. This is what the council will be voting on in the 14 Oct meeting - the concept and nothing else.
There is no "depth" in the plan. It is for site approval only.
Next year the budget process will determine what gets spent on specific items.
Currently there is 51k in the budget (from the capital budget and was not originally in the North Cary Park masterplan) to build a dog park in North Cary Park.
Currently town is working on the specifics for the North Cary Park location and will have public meetings later this year or early next year regarding the plan/cost etc. The meeting will be held at North Cary Park.
Staff will bring the details of the plan for public examination and comment and then evaluate these comments and send them to the advisory board. Advisory board will then send the report to the committee (operations or P&D unknown at this time) and then to the full council.
$73k includes things like fencing, concrete and water - she did not know the specifics that the consultant had put in there.
The Cary Dog Park Club will also be financing part of the dog park(s)

A couple personal comments...

She seemed very perplexed that I was even asking these questions. She was uncertain why I needed to know the specifics...I explained to her that part of the $120k (if you roughly add both parks) came from my tax dollars - that apparently wasn't the right answer. She asked me a couple times what my "motive" was and why I was asking these questions. I told her I wanted to understand this process and that I had some concerns about the proposed budget and operational aspects of the park. I gave her the example of the vaccinations and then she said they were working with "vets and animal control" on the matter [suppose implying that I couldn't possibly know anything about it]. I explained that I may have some different information about the vaccination requirement issue. I then told her my points and also listed several national organizations I used to get this information. She then stated to the affect of...your opinion isn't the only one and others don't share your opinion [so much for my input I guess]. I also asked her after the public hearing how they "manipulate" the information/opinions they received from the public. She said she wasn't discussing that with me and that she was offended by my suggestion that they manipulate the opinions. I explained that they would have to because in her words "they are different opinions" and need to analyze them before they presented a plan to the council. And she told me to go join the Cary Dog Park Club.

Why would the town pay money to hire a consultant to come up with these figures when they are (as it would seem) irrelevant?
Why all this effort if the only purpose is to have the council approve the 'concept' of a park?
Why have I asked 2 times in an email and 3 times on the phone for a breakdown of the costs and got NO answer?
What is the huge secret behind the funding and operations of this park?!?!

And all I wanted to know was how much the stupid dog park costs and what I had to do to bring my dogs there! GEESH!

I think it's time for me to break out the N.C.G.S. 132 template on this one.

hollyL

10-06-2004, 06:14 PM

Oh and another thing...if I treated my customers like this at work I would be (and should be) fired. They seem to forget the citizens are their CUSTOMERS. There needs to be some serious customer service training with some of the Cary staff. Or maybe Sue Rowland - who actually HAS customer service skills - could give them a lecture :-D

Wuptdo

10-06-2004, 08:52 PM

Holly, this might help. Town's organizational chart:

http://www.townofcary.org/depts/budget/fy2004/approved/aob/introduction/organizationchart.pdf

Your last post reminded of something as well:

There are those that do, if you can't do, teach, if you can't teach, adminstrate, if you can't administrate, manage, if you can't manage, then get a job with the government (any). :roll:

You are scoring some major brownie points in my book, Holly!

Keep being the gadfly!!!

Wuptdo B-)

hollyL

10-06-2004, 09:45 PM

Some may believe - accurately I suppose - that how much a dog park costs and whether one can put 1 or 2 Kerry signs in their yard is insignificant; however, these small efforts are stepping stones towards freedom for all, peace on earth and free ice cream for everyone!

...maybe not the ice cream :-D

The kibitzer - holly

Brent

10-07-2004, 07:27 AM

She seemed very perplexed that I was even asking these questions. She was uncertain why I needed to know the specifics...I explained to her that part of the $120k (if you roughly add both parks) came from my tax dollars - that apparently wasn't the right answer. She asked me a couple times what my "motive" was and why I was asking these questions. I told her I wanted to understand this process and that I had some concerns about the proposed budget and operational aspects of the park.

First, it shouldn't matter WHY you're asking or what your "motive" is; you have every right to ask and get answers. In the town's org chart, citizens are at the top. Second, the fact that you provided a satisfactory reason (which you shouldn't need to do anyway) should have ended that part of the discussion.

She then stated to the affect of...your opinion isn't the only one and others don't share your opinion [so much for my input I guess].

Well, I'm sure that's true, but your opinion is just as valid as anyone else's.

I also asked her after the public hearing how they "manipulate" the information/opinions they received from the public. She said she wasn't discussing that with me and that she was offended by my suggestion that they manipulate the opinions. I explained that they would have to because in her words "they are different opinions" and need to analyze them before they presented a plan to the council. And she told me to go join the Cary Dog Park Club.

Unacceptable. Completely, totally unacceptable.

Why would the town pay money to hire a consultant to come up with these figures when they are (as it would seem) irrelevant?
Why all this effort if the only purpose is to have the council approve the 'concept' of a park?
Why have I asked 2 times in an email and 3 times on the phone for a breakdown of the costs and got NO answer?
What is the huge secret behind the funding and operations of this park?!?!

All very good questions.

And all I wanted to know was how much the stupid dog park costs and what I had to do to bring my dogs there! GEESH!

How dare you try to be an informed citizen! :) :wink:

I think it's time for me to break out the N.C.G.S. 132 template on this one.

Hmm, I'm too lazy to look...what's that one? I think it might be time to compile all of your questions and the responses you've gotten, and your experiences, and break out that Cary org chart and start sending your concerns to people at higher levels in the org chart. If you have to go all the way to the top (to the citizens), a letter to the editor is one way to start.

Wuptdo

10-07-2004, 10:30 AM

After about 9:15 this AM over at Cary Town Hall, I would love to be a fly on the wall. Town Staffers have had their morning coffee, read the over nightly reports, and have check out "Carypolitics" for potential problems.

~~~~~~How I think "they" would like to do business~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Cary Emergency Phone Tree is activated. Various managers from Town Hall head for the "Chamber of Secrets" to meet with their masters from the Chamber of Commerce. Upon entering the hallway to the secret chamber, they put on black robes with hoods (to cover their id's).
On the way to the "Chamber" they begin chanting "lum-pa, lum-pa, lumpaty-do, we want to control you, etc, etc.. In the Chamber, the seven members of the local "council" are sitting in their high chairs. Each of the town "gnomes" stand in line, bow, then kiss the ring of each of the elite council. Several small chants and pledges are read. The local leader says we are waiting for the "Grand Master" from Raleigh. A few moments later the "Grand Master" arrives wearning a dark purple satin robe. Routine business is discussed:

1) STOPCARY.ORG - Status - nullified
2) Year-round Schools - Status - Pending
3) New Bond Issues - Status - Pending
4) SRO's - Status - Mission Accomplished
5) APF - Status - 50% Completed
6) Swim Center - Status - 30% Complete
7) Sign Ordenance - Status - 50% complete
etc, etc, etc,

Problems? Bloggers at Carypolitics. "They are asking questions again, m'Lord." "They are being coached by people that we trained, but didn't "turn." "They are writing LTE's to the Cary News." "They mock us, m'Lord." "Some of the public are beginning to see the "big picture." "They question our authority and wisdom." "We don't know what to do m'Lord." "Englighten us, m'Lord." The Grand Master thinks for a few moments.

These people in Cary are almost as troublesome as those over in Chapel Hill. I dream of the day when the weather is just right and we can release a nuclear cloud from our plant at Sherrin-Harris and it drifts over Cary, then heads towards Chapel Hill, elimating all these problem people, but it is only a dream. However, the best way to deal with these people is to pacify them. Give them what they want. Overload them with data, and kill them with kindness. Smile at them, and tell them you appreciate their input. A smile and thank you goes a long way.

The Grand Master looks at his flock and still knows they are upset. "Someday soon, our day will come, and that will be our day of reckoning." "Just image, after the steel forrest is built, looking out your windows and seeing all of the Cary bloggers hanging from the steel forrest, just be patient." The gnomes jump and scream for joy at that thought. The Grand Master speaks again: "Just remember this, StanN & Wuptdo, Rono, and Lang, belong to us downtown -- we are going to have a very special party for them at the "club!"

Then a women in a yellow gown enters the room, all is silent. The Grand Master speaks again: "Mary, do you understand why you are being punished?" "Yes, m'Lord, but in my defense, I didn't know she was a Cary Blogger." says Mary. "That is why your punishment will be minimal Mary, but ingnorance is no excuse," says the Grand Master. He orders ten hits of the paddle on the behind. As he rises to leave he reminds his flock "Remember know thy enemy, read CaryPolitics daily, read the Cary News, and keep track of those who speaks out at the meetings. Be diligent, and be prepared!" "Our Day will be soon!"

But suddenly, one of the younger gnomes speaks out to the Grand Master! "m'Lord, who should we vote for in the next election!" The Grand Master turns around and faces the group. "You didn't get the memo?" "No, m'lord." says the gnome. "Ok, let me remind you and please tell your friends -- Let the News & Observer be your guide, who they say should win, is who you should vote for." replies the GM "But, m'lord, even for President of the United States!" cries the gnome. Under his mask the GM smiles, "Son, it doesn't matter, they both belong!"

The meeting ends and all returns to their respect offices and business.

~~~~~~~Ok, I have had my attempt of being creative~~~~~~~~

However, I wonder if Holly's & Brents last few postings haven't cause a few phone calls or private meetings this AM over at Towh Hall? Will we every know?

Wuptdo B-)

That government is the strongest of which every man feels himself a part. Thomas Jeferson (1807)

hollyL

10-07-2004, 10:52 AM

However, I wonder if Holly's & Brents last few postings haven't cause a few phone calls or private meetings this AM over at Towh Hall? Will we every know?

Via email I was told that the breakdown of the costs is waiting for me downtown today.

hollyL

10-07-2004, 11:14 AM

...what's that one?

Chap 132 is the NC public records law. Most of the time gov't agencies seem willing and cooperative to just give it out (the city of Raleigh is great with this. I asked them for something once - and I only had to ask once - and they ended up giving me over 100 pages of info) however it seems others need a little nudge. I find that if I say something like this it seems to put a fire under them.

Pursuant to North Carolina NCGS 132 I request copies of the following public information:

1.
2.
3.

If it is necessary to separate confidential materials please disjoin this information as required by law. Reasonable fees will be paid if requested.

Please send this information to
MY ADDRESS

I certify this was mailed via USPS on [date].

*********************************
I've had people say this is rude/harsh. I don't really get that. I'm just simply stating a fact and asking someone to do there job...I even say please/thank you!

I'm sure many of you are already of aware of this but let me rant anyway. Statue can be read here http://www.ncleg.net/Statutes/GeneralStatutes/HTML/ByChapter/Chapter_132.html but below is some summary...The statue's definition is so broad it allows for public examination of virtually anything and everything that is in the possession of a public official including their emails etc.

Another interesting thing...you can find virtually all nonprofit tax returns at this site: http://www.guidestar.org/ - this is how I supersleuthed Cary Dog Park Club not being nonprofit.

Important aspects of public records law:

What is a public record?
§ 132-1. "Public records" defined.
(a)"Public record" or "public records" shall mean all documents, papers, letters, maps, books, photographs, films, sound recordings, magnetic or other tapes, electronic data-processing records, artifacts, or other documentary material, regardless of physical form or characteristics, made or received pursuant to law or ordinance in connection with the transaction of public business by any agency of North Carolina government or its subdivisions. Agency of North Carolina government or its subdivisions shall mean and include every public office, public officer or official (State or local, elected or appointed), institution, board, commission, bureau, council, department, authority or other unit of government of the State or of any county, unit, special district or other political subdivision of government.

(b)...it is the policy of this State that the people may obtain copies of their public records and public information free or at minimal cost unless otherwise specifically provided by law. As used herein, "minimal cost" shall mean the actual cost of reproducing the public record or public information

§ 132-2. Custodian designated.
The public official in charge of an office having public records shall be the custodian thereof.

§ 132-6. Inspection and examination of records.
(a)Every custodian of public records shall permit any record in the custodian's custody to be inspected and examined
at reasonable times and under reasonable supervision by any person, and shall, as promptly as possible, [in most cases this means today but it never means when 'they get around to it'] furnish copies thereof upon payment of any fees as may be prescribed by law. As used herein, "custodian" does not mean an agency that holds the public records of other agencies solely for purposes of storage or safekeeping or solely to provide data processing.
(b) No person requesting to inspect and examine public records, or to obtain copies thereof, shall be required to disclose the purpose or motive for the request. [This is an interesting one as I cannot count the times gov't officials have asked me this and then gotten pissed when I said.."I don't think I'm required to tell you that"]
(c) No request to inspect, examine, or obtain copies of public records shall be denied on the grounds that confidential information is commingled with the requested nonconfidential information. If it is necessary to separate confidential from nonconfidential information in order to permit the inspection, examination, or copying of the public records, the public agency shall bear the cost of such separation...

§ 132-9. Access to records.
(a)Any person who is denied access to public records for purposes of inspection and examination, or who is denied copies of public records, may apply to the appropriate division of the General Court of Justice for an order compelling disclosure or copying, and the court shall have jurisdiction to issue such orders. [N&O recommends stating the following if you are denied access to public records: "North Carolina's public records law, Chapter 132 of the General Statutes, provides for public inspection and copying of most records made or received by state or local governments and their subdivisions, regardless of the physical form of the record. If you contend that the document I have asked for is not a public record, please advise me of the specific statutory authority for that position." ]

johnb

10-07-2004, 12:23 PM

Holly,

Welcome to the fool's errand.

You don't get it do you?

The majority on the city council has already decided to steal money from your wallet, my wallet, and everyone else to build this "dog park" for that for profit group, the Cary Dog Club.

They don't give a **** about the propriety of it. They don't give a **** that they're cutting funding for the legitimate priorities (roads, police, etc...) of the city to do it.

They're like frat boys on a panty raid, don't quote law and ethics to them. It won't matter.

You have the cash, they're gonna take the cash and blow it on their friends.

Welcome to munincipal government.

Oh, notice how at first it was the Cary Dog Club paying for the fencing, etc....on city land. Then it was $40,000. Now it's 70,000-75,000. Watch that price tag. Before it's over it'll be six digits with no hope of the taxpayers EVER getting that money back - and that's by design.

You are now entering the theives market.

kellyc

10-07-2004, 01:26 PM

Sometimes I think (rightly or wrongly) that people from our message board that post and then make phone calls or send emails are going to get handled differently. I am sure that at some point they suspect all of us on this board have a hidden agenda. And I am sure some supect all of their comments will end up here on this board. I am by no ways defending their action, however I can see where they might be reserved or even not want to talk to any of us. It is still no excuse if she treated you poorly, but i guess I can kind of see both sides of the issue.

Wuptdo

10-07-2004, 02:02 PM

My previous boss instilled one great passion in all of us - good customer service was the secret to success and expect no less when dealing with other people as well. We would bend over backwards to help our customers. He also expected the same service from government as well. It took several years on council and a couple of years as mayor of Fuquay-Varina to turn those grumpy town employees into happy, customer orientated employees.

However, people our people, and the squeaky tire, gets the oil, that's just life. Hopefully, this forum helps people, especially when dealing with the town.

Wuptdo B-)

hollyL

10-07-2004, 02:12 PM

I think at one point she was a bit rude and certainly and overly forthcoming, however she was helpful in explaning the process. If I made it seem like she was just completely uncooperative that was certainly not the case. I'd guess that she doesn't have any idea who am I anyway but heck maybe I'm more infamous than I think :~)

I suppose everyone does have an agenda but mine - and I doubt anyone else's on this board - is certainly not to "call the town out" or something of that nature. We're just trying to make things better and improve our community - at least as far as we describe "better" and "improve". Regardless the intention is there. As far as the political sign fee issue went I really don't think many of them even thought of it until I mentioned it. I think they saw this was blatantly unconstitutional (and stupid) so they repealed. I say "good job" to them (but they still have a bit to go). Maybe I'm naive but I don't think most people thought I was just being a nuisance or a trouble maker about it.

Maybe I'm clueless here too but I really don't think that there are staff/council that are really that concerned about what I have to say on this or any other message board (no dis to Don's excellent board intended!) that they are going to constantly read it. Maybe they are concerned about those individuals and have/want to "take their seats" but they aren't going to go into a big investigation about what I'm saying anyway. However I'd bet the owner of any message board/website has access to the IP addresses that visit the site :~)

However...*if* they did read it they would know that I'm not just complaining but have, on several occasions, complimented staff and councilmembers on their actions both via email and on CP - certainly so have others. Several of the council members have been very helpful to me (Nels, Mayor has been responsive and Mike especially helpful) and I think Sue Rowland is excellent staff member. I actually sent an email to council stating that fact. All I ask is that people follow the rules and do it in a respectful manner - that's it really - I don't think that is unreasonable.

I think it is fair and obvious to assume that anytime anyone (including me) puts anything down in writing it is fair game unless specifically stated otherwise. I've had candid conversations with several gov't officials...they asked me to keep the conversation between ourselves and that's exactly what happened. I'd suspect anyone else on this board would honor that also.

kellyc

10-07-2004, 02:12 PM

kellyc

10-07-2004, 02:15 PM

hollyL

10-07-2004, 02:20 PM

Point taken...

Brent

10-07-2004, 03:04 PM

I completely agree with you Wup. Im not justifying their position by any means. However I do think I can understand some hesitation with us. Lets face it, if any of us get an answer we dont like we often post it right here.

So what? It ought to be public record anyway. Although I have lots of correspondence with Staff and Council, I don't often post it here.

In any case, I have always had excellent interactions with Staff. They have always been very responsive to my questions and comments. I expect that some of us "citizen activists" can be annoying at times, but I think that Staff realizes that we're all trying to make things better, from our own viewpoints, as Holly observes, and I've never sensed any hesitation from Staff because I participate on carypolitics (in fact, I could postulate that in some respects Staff might rather deal with "citizen activists" if they're well-informed and paying attention to local issues). I've never had anyone ask me why I wanted to know something or tell me they wouldn't discuss something with me, and I continue to maintain that those things aren't right.

Brent

10-07-2004, 03:05 PM

I know that what Mike wrote above was purely in jest...

And Wup, it was a HOOT! I nominate it for the "classics/hall of fame".

kellyc

10-07-2004, 04:31 PM

So what? It ought to be public record anyway. Although I have lots of correspondence with Staff and Council, I don't often post it here.

Brent I am by no means excusing anything. I guess in government you get the same folks as you get in any business. You have people there that realize the value of citizen inquiry and input, and those see it as a necessary evil. And perhaps in Mary's case she was just having a bad day. Most people I deal with in the town are perhaps some of the finest people that I have ever met/worked with.

hollyL

10-07-2004, 06:02 PM

Holly,

Welcome to the fool's errand.

You don't get it do you?

I'm not convinced the council at fault here. As a matter of fact, I'd stretch to say their only major fault is to continue to work within a broken system that puts significant power in the hands of a small group of individuals (staff) that are not accountable to the voters. I believe a large part of the problem lies in the significant responsibility put on "staff" in this process. I believe the councilmembers make somewhere around 10k - certainly not enough to make this their occupation, but because of this they must either maintain a "regular" job or at least have a significant other who can support them. It seems this job has significant responsibility and takes up a good deal of time; frankly I don't know how they have a full time job and do it because it would completely exhaust me. Because they are not full time politicians they must rely heavily on the advise and direction of staff. This creates a big problem...staff runs the show and we ain't voting for them. I'd venture of say that full time council positions are not a bad idea. Let me give a few examples of why I think this:

When I brought the political sign issue up to the council staff was directed to look into it. The "Purpose for Amendment" listed on the P&D minutes/proposed amendments was "Planning staff received a request to amend regulations for Political Signs". I'm assuming that this request would include those which I made. However, the actually changes reflected only a change of "Such signs shall be limited to not more than one per candidate or per side of an issue on any single parcel". That doesn't include the majority of suggestions I recommended and actually doesn't reflect any suggestion I made - not one single thing I brought up was in there. So they are selectively excluding and included what they want. If I didn't speak directly to the council they would have never known my suggestions. So staff decides what is in and what is out...they don't represent the concerns of the citizens they decide which ones they think are appropriate. When staff presented this to the P&D committee they fortunately called them out on it and sent it back for changes again. Staff becomes a self representing filter that has no accountability to the voters. And I think they councilmembers are not totally aware that this is happening.

The second example is a bit of soap opera but still proves a point. One of my neighbors was in a stink over my signs claiming they were an eyesore and were effecting the ability for another neighbor to sell their house or some BS like that. She complained to the town (according to the informant neighbor) after chewing me out and was told that they are not enforcing the political sign ordinance during the evaluation of it. Now, I don't normally believe gossip but the informant neighbor showed me an email from a P&Z employee that said this exact statement and since she is a Kerry supporter she was happy my signs would be staying up. At least one member of the the council believes they are being enforced. There seems to be a serious disconnect here.

A while back I heard staff's recommendation for a new cable franchise renewal agreement. Staff presented 1 - only 1 - option to the council. The contract included a 10 year (no, not a typo) agreement. So much for competition. How they heck can the council make another decision besides the one that is presented?

I doubt very seriously that Parks&Rec ran to the council after I let them know my concerns. I'm sure that my concerns would have stayed right there on that phone conversation. I plan on sending a letter directly to the council in hopes that my concerns will be heard. I'm really not specifically concerned if they agree with me or not but I do think that citizens should at least be heard and not filtered out by staff.

Maybe I'm wrong about this but it is just the general feeling I'm starting to get.

Brent

10-07-2004, 06:17 PM

Via email I was told that the breakdown of the costs is waiting for me downtown today.

Meaning that when you see the costs, you will break down? :lol:

Brent

10-07-2004, 06:22 PM

A while back I heard staff's recommendation for a new cable franchise renewal agreement. Staff presented 1 - only 1 - option to the council. The contract included a 10 year (no, not a typo) agreement. So much for competition. How they heck can the council make another decision besides the one that is presented?

Better (actually, worse) yet, that recommendation came from a consultant.

I doubt very seriously that Parks&Rec ran to the council after I let them know my concerns. I'm sure that my concerns would have stayed right there on that phone conversation. I plan on sending a letter directly to the council in hopes that my concerns will be heard. I'm really not specifically concerned if they agree with me or not but I do think that citizens should at least be heard and not filtered out by staff

Precisely. Go up the org chart. Staff's bosses are Council. Council's bosses are the citizens of Cary.

Wuptdo

10-07-2004, 07:14 PM

Brent wrote:

Better (actually, worse) yet, that recommendation came from a consultant

I have been thinking about all the consultants the TOC hires. From my limited viewpoint, it seems that counsultants are actually doing a lot work that the staff should be doing (and it would probably a lot cheaper as well). This is especially true with all the resources available on the internet. When my wife and I planned out our children's school playground, we got 90% of the information off the net, and the rest from the various vendors. In many cases, there is software out there that make "planning" very easy; i.e., "plug & chug" = estimate. The rest being "common sense" in writing an evalution or doinga simple analyses.
I digress.

For instance, the Cary Budget Committe was all citizen volunteers. We as a group put forth at least, in my humble opinion, a very good "product" in a very short time. Now if we were a consultanting firm, how much in consultanting fees could of we charged the TOC? Hopefully, more informed members of this board can come up with a dollar amount.

Holly, please pardon the intrusion into your thread. :oops:

Kelly wrote:

I know that what Mike wrote above was purely in jest, but I cant help but wonder if somewhere in there is a little bit of fact.

Kelly & all: Does anyone remember voting on bond issues for:

RBC Center
Explorsis
IMAX
Renovations of BTI Center
Proposed Hotel & Convention Complex

Just food for thought! :wink:

Wuptdo B-)

Cathy

10-07-2004, 11:49 PM

You guys must have missed the meeting where Mike Joyce questioned Staff calling for "a Study". He laid it out for them pretty clearly that he thought that they were requesting outside consultants to do work that he felt was the job that Staff was hired for.

All Jeff Ulma could say in defense was something about "fresh ideas from an outside source". It didn't wash.

Wup, Your story is SO GOOD. Probably because it's not far from the truth.

Cathy

Brent

10-08-2004, 07:20 AM

We hire too many consultants. Although there certainly is a place for consultants in local government, I am happy to trust citizen volunteers and Staff to find appropriate solutions in many cases.

johnb

10-08-2004, 02:47 PM

Hiring outside consultants it a dodge. It let's staff point the finger and blame someone else when their proposals get shot down by irrate citizens forcing the council beasts to stand up against staff.

The blow tens of thousands of dollars a year merely so they can maintain plausible deniability. Remember the Chatham Street plan? Who did Jeff Ulema blame? The Virginia consultants.

Holly, it is the council's fault. They must keep the staff on a short lease. We elect the council, not the staff. Period. I argued before, no hidden agenda - I lay it right on the table, that after that foolish Chatham Street plan that heads should roll and people in the Planning department should have fired, given a pink slip and told to get out. I wasn't joking then and I think it was a mistake for staff to be allowed to walk away from that mess without being held accountable.

I am of the same mind on all these matters. Whoever tells council that project X, whether the Tennis thing, Regency, etc...will "pay for itself" should be fired when it turns out to be yet another fiscal disaster. Just roll a couple of heads and that nonsense would cease.

This doggie park fiasco is happening only because the council refuses to put and keep a leash on the staff. Period. If the City Manager is unwilling or unable to manage his people effectively and fire them when appropriate the council should can him. Coleman doesn't hold them accountable because he doesn't have to. Council can't fire Ulema (for example), but they can fire Coleman or zero Ulema's salary out of the next city budget.

hollyL

10-09-2004, 07:06 PM

You guys must have missed the meeting where Mike Joyce questioned Staff calling for "a Study". He laid it out for them pretty clearly that he thought that they were requesting outside consultants to do work that he felt was the job that Staff was hired for.

Good point Cathy. For the record Mike Joyce is exempt from most of my criticisms.

hollyL

10-09-2004, 07:19 PM

I have been thinking about all the consultants the TOC hires. From my limited viewpoint, it seems that counsultants are actually doing a lot work that the staff should be doing (and it would probably a lot cheaper as well). This is especially true with all the resources available on the internet. tion or doinga simple analyses.

Since I now know the cost of the dogpark now I'd like to comment on a few things and also offer my suggestions.

Using my trusty laptop and simple google/froggle searches I was able to construct the dog park online. I broke it down to 2 separate plans. Creatively named "Plan 1" and "Plan 2" which saves the TOC ~$32,000 and ~$26,000 respectfully; most likely more than that as the contingency fee of $5000 is included in there. I've started a draft that I will send to the council members. You can view the draft online at http://www.thesethingsiknow.com/toc/dogparkdraft.pdf. Since you may get quite bored with the dialog in the link you may skip to the end of the doc which has links, prices and pictures to all of the items I am suggesting.

These are the town's estimates for the dog park to be located at North Cary Park. (Estimates for the Bartley park run around $70k including 2 picnic shelters...another task for another day...)

Fencing and Gates $17,151
Concrete Pads (139 sq yrd) $40 $5560
People/dog drinking fountains (2) $1500 $3000
Information Kiosk (2 sided) $6,000
Benches -8- $820 $6560
Trash receptacles (3) $1800
Water service line $3000
Reseeding areas disturbed by construction $2000
Signage (1) $2000
Contractor's mobilization $2500
10% contingency $5000

Simply the 2 plans are...
Plan 1
Replaces availability of water to dogs via expensive "dog drinking fountain" with 2 yard hydrants and several stainless steal pails. The total cost of this option is approximately $275; $2700 less than the town estimate. The stainless steal pails will each hold 6 quarts of water and 7 of these pails would be placed around the park.

Benches would be replaced with more affordable 15' aluminum benches at a cost of approximately $259.00 each. This would allow for ample seating in the park and the long benches could be installed along the fence line.

It seems reasonable that people supply their own water while at the park.

The concrete slab serves no real purpose at a dog park that I can see.

The $6000 kiosk was eliminated from this plan as if it's sole purpose is to disseminate information to individuals using the dog park this could be done in a much more economically manner in an outdoor enclosed bulletin board (see table 6.0 item 5 for example).

Signage seems to be quite overpriced at 1 for $2,000.00. Clearly a less expensive option is available. After several over-the-phone quotes it seems a metal sign with reasonable size could be purchased for approximately $200 and mounted to the fence.

Plan 2:
Allows for all of the items called for in the town's plan but replaces most of them with considerably less expensive options.

A concrete pad is included with cost of materials only. The size of the pad could be reduced to balance out the labor costs of laying the pad.

The drinking fountain was included however since the area is only presumed to be 2 acres the need for 2 fountains does not seem validated. The drinking fountain contained in the estimate is a wall mounted unit that could be mounted on the storage shed. The wall mount type reduces the cost by about $400.00. Dogs would be provided water in the same manner as Plan 1.

The $6000 information kiosk is replaced by a small storage shed for approximately $1000. This shed could be used for both storage and a place for information to be posted on the outside of the shed.

The $820.00 benches have been replaced with 4 foot thermo coated plastic metal benches at $571.00 each. The sturdy steel frame will also stand up to the elements and reduces the cost of benches by almost $2000.00.

The $600.00 trash receptacles have been replaced by 36 gallon steal bar construction with dome top lids (to reduce odor). These receptacles are priced at $351.00 each thereby reduce the cost of trash receptacles by approximately $4,300.00. The benches and trash receptacles will pleasantly match one another.