WCPSS: balance more important than education?

[AnnSchleiss]

This story on WRAL tells much about the attitude of the current school board:
http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/6220428/

Apparently non-F&R students are far more likely than F&R students to attend magnet schools to take courses not offered in their base schools.

According to the story, and quotes from Eleanor Goettee, they are considering not allowing students in certain areas to attend magnet schools. Instead, they would require those students to go to their base school even though the students want to take courses not offered in their base schools.

The problem, using the example in the story, is that if a kid wants to take German, and German is not offered in the base school, that kid might not be able to go to a magnet school. It is more important to maintain economic balance in the schools than to allow students to take more advanced courses that are not offered in the base schools.

So if a school would lose too many non-F&R students to magnet schools, students in that area would be prevented from attending a magnet school.

Economic balance is good. But to limit the education of some students in order to maintain economic balance is just not right.

[chaboard]

This story on WRAL tells much about the attitude of the current school board:
http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/6220428/

Apparently non-F&R students are far more likely than F&R students to attend magnet schools to take courses not offered in their base schools.

According to the story, and quotes from Eleanor Goettee, they are considering not allowing students in certain areas to attend magnet schools. Instead, they would require those students to go to their base school even though the students want to take courses not offered in their base schools.

The problem, using the example in the story, is that if a kid wants to take German, and German is not offered in the base school, that kid might not be able to go to a magnet school. It is more important to maintain economic balance in the schools than to allow students to take more advanced courses that are not offered in the base schools.

So if a school would lose too many non-F&R students to magnet schools, students in that area would be prevented from attending a magnet school.

Economic balance is good. But to limit the education of some students in order to maintain economic balance is just not right.

Of course the problem you're complaining about here gets much, much WORSE if the new board moves to a system of neighborhood schools. You do realize that, right?

[CatherineE]

Of course the problem you're complaining about here gets much, much WORSE if the new board moves to a system of neighborhood schools. You do realize that, right?

Charlie, seriously and respectfully, I'd like to ask you to detail how this is so. The situation has been misrepresented as a diversity matter when many democrats have tried to explain to our own party that this isn't about a diversity versus neighborhood schools issue but about a school board that ignores the concerns of the parents who happen to live in Cary and other certain areas in the county.

Honestly, it appears from what I've learned from the Cary voters who elected some of these new school board members, they simply want their children to enjoy the sense of community and support missing by being bussed into other schools year after year. Do you not believe there is a third option that combines the best of both our current diversity option along with the best of our neighborhood schools?

Am looking for honest debate because this isn't a partisan issue and dems. lost because we attempted to portray it as such.

[johnshaw]

This story on WRAL tells much about the attitude of the current school board:
http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/6220428/

Apparently non-F&R students are far more likely than F&R students to attend magnet schools to take courses not offered in their base schools.

According to the story, and quotes from Eleanor Goettee, they are considering not allowing students in certain areas to attend magnet schools. Instead, they would require those students to go to their base school even though the students want to take courses not offered in their base schools.

The problem, using the example in the story, is that if a kid wants to take German, and German is not offered in the base school, that kid might not be able to go to a magnet school. It is more important to maintain economic balance in the schools than to allow students to take more advanced courses that are not offered in the base schools.

So if a school would lose too many non-F&R students to magnet schools, students in that area would be prevented from attending a magnet school.

Economic balance is good. But to limit the education of some students in order to maintain economic balance is just not right.

If they prevent Dillard Drive students from attending magnet schools, will they add the same courses (international languages) to Dillard?

According to the story, Eleanor Goettee said that "There is no delineated list of schools that we've identified where we are going to refuse parents the choice". However, she said (according to WRAL), that one option might be to reduce the number of magnet seats available by lottery. If WRAL is correct that they are considering such a move, it is disturbing.

[chaboard]

Of course the problem you're complaining about here gets much, much WORSE if the new board moves to a system of neighborhood schools. You do realize that, right?

Charlie, seriously and respectfully, I'd like to ask you to detail how this is so. The situation has been misrepresented as a diversity matter when many democrats have tried to explain to our own party that this isn't about a diversity versus neighborhood schools issue but about a school board that ignores the concerns of the parents who happen to live in Cary and other certain areas in the county.


How is it so? In a system of neighborhood schools NO ONE gets the option of choosing to go to a magnet for a different curriculum because those slots are for kids who live in the neighborhood of the "magnet". The very concept of magnets is not compatible with the concept of neighborhood schools.

So if your kid wants to take German...you must just happen to live in a neighborhood where German is offered - which restricts you MORE than any magnet selection system (even a bad one).

Of course, one option to get around that would be to offer German at every school. But that costs money and the new board thinks we spend too MUCH money now educating our kids....



Honestly, it appears from what I've learned from the Cary voters who elected some of these new school board members, they simply want their children to enjoy the sense of community and support missing by being bussed into other schools year after year. Do you not believe there is a third option that combines the best of both our current diversity option along with the best of our neighborhood schools?


No, I don't. Until our neighborhoods are economically diverse - and neighborhoods pretty much by definition aren't in most places - I think the very concept of neighborhood schools is thoroughly incompatible with the very concept of socioeconomic schools.

And if there IS a third option out there, one would think the winning anti-diversity side would have articulated it during the campaign. It's telling that they never did.

But if you really think there is a third option that keeps economic diversity while creating neighborhood schools.....I'm all ears.



Am looking for honest debate because this isn't a partisan issue and dems. lost because we attempted to portray it as such.

********. Lost because the other side was better at mobilizing their people. And they were better at that in large part BECAUSE they tapped into highly partisan fervor.

[AnnSchleiss]

Of course the problem you're complaining about here gets much, much WORSE if the new board moves to a system of neighborhood schools. You do realize that, right?

Charlie, seriously and respectfully, I'd like to ask you to detail how this is so. The situation has been misrepresented as a diversity matter when many democrats have tried to explain to our own party that this isn't about a diversity versus neighborhood schools issue but about a school board that ignores the concerns of the parents who happen to live in Cary and other certain areas in the county.

Honestly, it appears from what I've learned from the Cary voters who elected some of these new school board members, they simply want their children to enjoy the sense of community and support missing by being bussed into other schools year after year. Do you not believe there is a third option that combines the best of both our current diversity option along with the best of our neighborhood schools?

Am looking for honest debate because this isn't a partisan issue and dems. lost because we attempted to portray it as such.

This issue has been misrepresented as anti-diversity, resegregation, anti-immigrant, etc. One of the campaign managers for one "status quo" candidate even referred to the opposition as "bigots".

This is simply not the case. I am sure that candidates on both sides had the best interest of our children in mind.

However, the Democratic backed candidates just did not understand the reason for the opposition. Many parents, particularly those who have moved here from other parts of the country, put a high value on the school to home proximity. They want their kids to be involved in after school activities. They don't like for their kids to have to be out at the bus stop before 6:30am. They think that high schools in all areas of the county should be able to offer advanced placement courses. When they learn from teachers that their high school cannot offer a course because the school system wants to limit that course to Enloe, they get upset.

When a students living west of West Cary Middle School has to go past that school to attend East Cary Middle School for only a minor increase in economic balance, their parents get upset.

You should not tell a group from Cary that, because of international business our students need to be exposed to diverse cultures and that won't happen with neighborhood schools--when that group has an Indian-American and a Chinese American in the audiance.

Unfortunately, what we now have is a group of Republicans who have the typical right wing attitude towards spending: cheap. I don't like the group that was elected. However, I, and many others, dislike the status quo candidates even more.

If the Democrats had offered candidates that recognized the real reasons that the parents were upset with the school system and worked to correct the problems, and make small compromises, we would not have what we now face. I will have to blame my fellow Democrats for the problem our schools may well face is the new school board tries to make more changes than are necessary but continue to be one of the cheapist school systems in the country.

I don't mean to demean Republicans. I know that they are well meaning people, and many of my friends are in the GOP. However, I am one of those "tax-and-spend libeeeral Democrats" who recognize that good schools, with advanced courses taught at all schools, costs money.

[JoeCiulla]

********. Lost because the other side was better at mobilizing their people. And they were better at that in large part BECAUSE they tapped into highly partisan fervor.

Don't confuse the misplaced partisan chest-thumping going on right now with what actually caused this election result.

Read the PPP data which was released week before last. While neighborhood schools supporters were successful in mobilizing the vote, what was really "tapped into" was broad sentiment against current busing policies. There was no majority support for diversity busing across any party or demographic group.

[johnshaw]

...who recognize that good schools, with advanced courses taught at all schools, costs money.

Yes, it will cost money. But it will be worth it to allow students all over the county to take the same AP courses that are offered at Enloe (and standard at all high schools in some other parts of the country).

[JoeCiulla]

Unfortunately, what we now have is a group of Republicans who have the typical right wing attitude towards spending: cheap. I don't like the group that was elected. However, I, and many others, dislike the status quo candidates even more.

Give them a chance, they might surprise you. Running the school system on a shoestring is not a good way to get re-elected. The members-elect have a tough job ahead of them, and there are many needs which must be addressed. Personally, I hope they take a hard look at central office. The teachers I talk to all share the opinion that central office has too many people doing too little work. And the salaries there seem rather high compared to teachers.



I will have to blame my fellow Democrats for the problem our schools may well face is the new school board tries to make more changes than are necessary but continue to be one of the cheapist school systems in the country.

Oh, I think there is plenty of bipartisan blame to go around. Patti Head and Horace Tart are Republicans, and both helped create this tsunami.

[chaboard]

Unfortunately, what we now have is a group of Republicans who have the typical right wing attitude towards spending: cheap. I don't like the group that was elected. However, I, and many others, dislike the status quo candidates even more.

Give them a chance, they might surprise you. Running the school system on a shoestring is not a good way to get re-elected. The members-elect have a tough job ahead of them, and there are many needs which must be addressed. Personally, I hope they take a hard look at central office. The teachers I talk to all share the opinion that central office has too many people doing too little work. And the salaries there seem rather high compared to teachers.


I don't buy it. I'm pretty sure teachers *everywhere* think that of central office. Much the same way software guys everywhere think management and sales are useless! It's part of the job description. ;)

I could be wrong, but I recall reading that Wake's administrative costs and size of staff were pretty much right in line with districts of the same size. Do you have information to the contrary?

"Cut administration" is the most likely the politically convenient but practically absurd answer.




Oh, I think there is plenty of bipartisan blame to go around. Patti Head and Horace Tart are Republicans, and both helped create this tsunami.

"Tsunami"? That's as silly as the guy who wrote the LTE trying to pretend it didn't count because it was s few voters in only four districts. I know you're happy but no need for hyperbole....

[JoeCiulla]

Appears that Cathy Truitt is dropping out of the D2 School Board race......
http://wake.mync.com/site/wake/news/story/43333/wake-school-board-candidate-to-announce-campaign-decision

[AnnSchleiss]

Appears that Cathy Truitt is dropping out of the D2 School Board race......
http://wake.mync.com/site/wake/news/story/43333/wake-school-board-candidate-to-announce-campaign-decision

Well, it's official now. The change candidates will control the board starting on Dec. 1.

A couple of things I am concerned about:

1. As much as the assignment policy needs to change, it will take time. We don't need massive reassignments like they had in Charlotte. But there should be a switch, over the next few years - not in one single year-to community based schools.

2. Good education cost money. We do not need a tightwad BOE at this time. For example, increasing the number of advanced placement courses at the high schools in Cary will cost money. Improving the inner city high F&R schools will cost money. Right now Wake spends less per student than the average for NC, and far less than most similar systems around the country.

I hope that one of the first things they will do is offer the same advanced courses in Western Wake that they offer at Enloe. That will improve the educational opportunity in this area without doing significant damage to diversity.

It seems that some of the rejected "status quo" candidates still don't get it. Lois Nixon was quoted in the N&O as saying "I think that the 90 percent that are happy with the way the schools are didn't turn out to vote". From what I have seen the turnout among Democrats was almost as high as among Republicans. The same story that quoted Nixon also quoted pollster Dean Debnam as saying that only 29% supported the current policy.

Karen Simon is quoted in a WRALTV story as saying "Race had everything to do with it". She is wrong. It didn't. But seeing kids standing at the bus stop at 6:30am did have something to do with it.

Let's hope that the new school board (including the existing members not involved in the election), will do some things differently. Such as listening to parents, dropping the arrogant attitude, and recognizing that Cary/Apex/Morrisville have cultural diversity even without kids from S. E. Raleigh.

[Icorpse]

There was a very interesting letter to the editor of NANDO last Sunday from a gentleman who lives ITB. Essentially, he was concerned about real estate prices ITB now that their schools will have to deal with more F&R students. So, now the truth is slowly emerging. I wonder when the general population will catch on?

[Icorpse]

Well, it's official now. The change candidates will control the board starting on Dec. 1.

A couple of things I am concerned about:

1. As much as the assignment policy needs to change, it will take time. We don't need massive reassignments like they had in Charlotte. But there should be a switch, over the next few years - not in one single year-to community based schools.

2. Good education cost money. We do not need a tightwad BOE at this time. For example, increasing the number of advanced placement courses at the high schools in Cary will cost money. Improving the inner city high F&R schools will cost money. Right now Wake spends less per student than the average for NC, and far less than most similar systems around the country.

I hope that one of the first things they will do is offer the same advanced courses in Western Wake that they offer at Enloe. That will improve the educational opportunity in this area without doing significant damage to diversity.

It seems that some of the rejected "status quo" candidates still don't get it. Lois Nixon was quoted in the N&O as saying "I think that the 90 percent that are happy with the way the schools are didn't turn out to vote". From what I have seen the turnout among Democrats was almost as high as among Republicans. The same story that quoted Nixon also quoted pollster Dean Debnam as saying that only 29% supported the current policy.

Karen Simon is quoted in a WRALTV story as saying "Race had everything to do with it". She is wrong. It didn't. But seeing kids standing at the bus stop at 6:30am did have something to do with it.

Let's hope that the new school board (including the existing members not involved in the election), will do some things differently. Such as listening to parents, dropping the arrogant attitude, and recognizing that Cary/Apex/Morrisville have cultural diversity even without kids from S. E. Raleigh.
The board will have a number of decisions to make for the next school year but it is safe to say that they will do away with MYR and forced bussing to begin with. I would personally leave the EXISTING magnet programs untouched but instead focus on E-learning type initiatives to provide more AP classes to all WCPSS students, particularly at the HS level.

[chaboard]

The board will have a number of decisions to make for the next school year but it is safe to say that they will do away with MYR and forced bussing to begin with. I would personally leave the EXISTING magnet programs untouched but instead focus on E-learning type initiatives to provide more AP classes to all WCPSS students, particularly at the HS level.

Well the EXISTING magnet programs are located disproportionately in poorer neighborhoods, right? Are you telling those kids that everybody else can go to neighborhood schools but that they can't because "their" schools will still be filled with magnet students?

[AnnSchleiss]

Well the EXISTING magnet programs are located disproportionately in poorer neighborhoods, right? Are you telling those kids that everybody else can go to neighborhood schools but that they can't because "their" schools will still be filled with magnet students?

It should not have that effect. The magnet schools also have a base attendance area. That area for Enloe can be found at: http://wwwgis2.wcpss.net/prod/mapscript/WCMapscript.php?MainOption=FindNodes&NodeType=BASE&MagProg=&SchoolInfo=412+ENLOE+HIGH&ProgramTitle=Base+Attendance+Area+(CURRENT)&MagName=&CalendarYear=2009-2010.

While that area may be made more compact, the size (in number of students) could be kept the same. When some of the seats in a school are used for magnet (out of base attendance area) students, there are fewer seats for base area students, hence the base attendance area is smaller than it would be without magnet status. However, for every location in the county, there is a base elementary, middle, and high school. For many, but far from all, people these bases areas are near the schools. A return to community schools would mean changes in the base areas, but with the base area for any given school kept the same size.

An important thing for many families in western Cary is that more Advanced Placement (AP) courses should be offered in the Cary schools. A list of the number of AP courses at the high schools can be found at: http://www.newsobserver.com/content/media/2008/12/30/ap.pdf. (This may be for last year; I understand that it is similar or the same this school year).

As can be seen, Enloe offers 28 AP courses. Panther Creek only offers 16. Why the difference?

[Icorpse]

The board will have a number of decisions to make for the next school year but it is safe to say that they will do away with MYR and forced bussing to begin with. I would personally leave the EXISTING magnet programs untouched but instead focus on E-learning type initiatives to provide more AP classes to all WCPSS students, particularly at the HS level.

Well the EXISTING magnet programs are located disproportionately in poorer neighborhoods, right? Are you telling those kids that everybody else can go to neighborhood schools but that they can't because "their" schools will still be filled with magnet students?

No. I hope that keeping magnet programs untouched would encourage more students at these schools to apply for them. They are not competitive to get into. That way, they can get better teachers and more help.

@ Ann -- The AP classes are biased towards well-off ITB schools like Enloe and Broughton. That is common knowledge. What I was alluding to is that the ITB reps did an excellent job avoiding their fair share of F&R students for the last 15 years by shunting them off elsewhere.

[chaboard]

Well the EXISTING magnet programs are located disproportionately in poorer neighborhoods, right? Are you telling those kids that everybody else can go to neighborhood schools but that they can't because "their" schools will still be filled with magnet students?

It should not have that effect. The magnet schools also have a base attendance area. That area for Enloe can be found at: http://wwwgis2.wcpss.net/prod/mapscript/WCMapscript.php?MainOption=FindNodes&NodeType=BASE&MagProg=&SchoolInfo=412+ENLOE+HIGH&ProgramTitle=Base+Attendance+Area+(CURRENT)&MagName=&CalendarYear=2009-2010.

While that area may be made more compact, the size (in number of students) could be kept the same. When some of the seats in a school are used for magnet (out of base attendance area) students, there are fewer seats for base area students, hence the base attendance area is smaller than it would be without magnet status. However, for every location in the county, there is a base elementary, middle, and high school. For many, but far from all, people these bases areas are near the schools. A return to community schools would mean changes in the base areas, but with the base area for any given school kept the same size.


That's all just definitional game-playing though....your still left saying that, for example, the nearest 600 kids to suburb school A get to go to their "neighborhood" school while only 300 of the nearest 600 kids to magnet school B get to go and the other 300 get sent further away to accomodate the 300 suburb kids you're letting in to the magnet. In the end you're still left with real neighborhood schools for one group but not so much for another (mostly poorer, mostly minority) group.



An important thing for many families in western Cary is that more Advanced Placement (AP) courses should be offered in the Cary schools. A list of the number of AP courses at the high schools can be found at: http://www.newsobserver.com/content/media/2008/12/30/ap.pdf. (This may be for last year; I understand that it is similar or the same this school year).

As can be seen, Enloe offers 28 AP courses. Panther Creek only offers 16. Why the difference?

Well the original idea was, of course, to get voluntary integration. But now that we are officially resegregating....

[AnnSchleiss]

That's all just definitional game-playing though....your still left saying that, for example, the nearest 600 kids to suburb school A get to go to their "neighborhood" school while only 300 of the nearest 600 kids to magnet school B get to go and the other 300 get sent further away to accomodate the 300 suburb kids you're letting in to the magnet. In the end you're still left with real neighborhood schools for one group but not so much for another (mostly poorer, mostly minority) group.
Assuming, for the point of discussion, that schools have 600 seats and magnet schools reserve 300 for out-of-base students: Because, inside the beltline things are closer together than in Cary (IBT is more dense and everything is closer together), 300 students would go to Enloe as a base school and 300 students who would go to Enloe if it were not magnetic go to some other school. However, the second closest school to them is still relatively close. Maybe, because of Enloe's magnetism, some students would have to go a little further to get to school. But they still would not go far.

The term "neighborhood" is often taken too literally. That's why I prefer the term "community based". There is a big difference between someone living just a little further from their school vs. someone who has a 45 minute drive to get to school and goes past other schools.


Well the original idea was, of course, to get voluntary integration. But now that we are officially resegregating....The point is not about officially resegregating. The parents that I have talked to are not trying to segregate the schools. They are just upset about the fact that they are told that if their kids are to take a large number of AP courses they will have to go to school 45 minutes from home-and give up many of the after school activities that they would have if they did not take the AP courses they want. Parents have talked to school board members and certain candidates about having all of the AP courses offered at Enloe offered at some school in Cary. They have been told that simple won't happen because the WCPSS wants them to go to Enloe, not go to a school reasonably near their homes.

Tell me Charlie, is there anything wrong with offering all of the AP courses at a Cary school?

Parents who live west of West Cary MS also do not like their kids having to go past West Cary MS to get to East Cary MS, when there are kids who live east of East Cary MS that go to West Cary MS. Do we need to do that to get only a small improvement in the F&R balance?

Is there no disadvantage in having kids on the street waiting for a school bus at 6:30 am?

[chaboard]

Well the original idea was, of course, to get voluntary integration. But now that we are officially resegregating....The point is not about officially resegregating. The parents that I have talked to are not trying to segregate the schools.


Regardless of what they are TRYING to do...the fact is (assuming none of the new board members breaks rank) is that they WILL re-segregate the schools. And it doesn't seem to bother them in the slightest so I don't see a whole lot of value in parsing out their true intentions.



They are just upset about the fact that they are told that if their kids are to take a large number of AP courses they will have to go to school 45 minutes from home-and give up many of the after school activities that they would have if they did not take the AP courses they want. Parents have talked to school board members and certain candidates about having all of the AP courses offered at Enloe offered at some school in Cary. They have been told that simple won't happen because the WCPSS wants them to go to Enloe, not go to a school reasonably near their homes.

Tell me Charlie, is there anything wrong with offering all of the AP courses at a Cary school?


Hell no - they should ALL be offered in at least one section at EVERY high school. But that would require spending money. And you just elected the people who think we already spend too MUCH educating our kids.

[StanN]

The BOE, old or new, does not have the power to generate revenues for advanced courses (or for building schools). The advanced courses cost more in e.g. Cary High, than they do in a a magnet school. The main reason is that those offered in non-magnets do not draw a full classroom. I know someone who took advanced chemistry in a non-magnet with seven other kids. In a science magnet the class would be full. In both cases the cost of the teacher would be about the same.

So, in the real world, if you bring all those AP courses to Cary you have to either fire a teacher or make other classes larger. Either downgrades education.

BTW, most of the funding for AP courses comes from the WBOC whereas the funding for the core curriculum comes from the NCGA.

Considering the fact that before the axe fell, financial support for WCPSS for education ranked 85 of 115 school districts in NC, it is amazing they are still offering AP courses at all.

Unlike 47 other states NC does not let BOE's set the tax rate for schools.

StanN

[StanN]

Written three months ago.

2007: The Good Old Days for Wake's Schools?

In 2007 everyone who wanted a job had one. Foreclosures were few and far between. The stock market had not crashed. Neither the State nor the County had a budget crisis. It was a good time. Yet in 2007, according to data just released by the U.S. Census, NC was ranked 44th out of 50 states in support per student for public schools. Further, in prosperous, high-tech Wake County, public expenditures by the Wake County Public School System (WCPSS) were below the state average. The combined contribution of the State and County for the operating expenditures for education (largely classroom instruction) was in the bottom 30% of the State rankings. The results aren't known for the 2010 school year just starting. It seems likely that NC and Wake's rankings will continue to fall.

This year the State and County's contributions did not keep up either with growth or inflation. In fact if we look back fifteen years, we see that NC's ranking has been slowly but steadily slipping toward the bottom of the list.

Back in 2007, Wake County and the State excelled in creating new jobs. The resources needed to build schools for the associated new students took a giant bite out of property taxes and left too little for advancing academics. Recently, the results of this have begun to show in reduced test scores and graduation rates.

This should not be surprising. Pre-school programs, summer school and after school hours enrichment programs all add to student performance and raise costs. When class sizes are small - as they often are for either at-risk students or the academically advanced -- costs per student go up. Smaller schools help maintain an orderly environment needed to advance education, but raise administrative costs.

Who is accountable? Accountability is diffuse, defying transparency and confusing the public. Accountability ranges from the Governor, the State Superintendent, the Department of Public Instruction, the NC General Assembly and the Board of Commissioners, and finally the Wake Board of Education (BOE) and the Superintendent of WCPSS. Neither the BOE nor the Superintendent has a significant role in determining the level of revenues. They have a large, but not commanding, role as to how it is spent. But they are the most visible and available to the public and draw the most criticism.

We are about to have an election based on the premise that a change in the Wake BOE assignment policies regarding diversity and neighborhood schools will be a silver bullet to reform education in Wake County. But it changes nothing in the remainder of the system and could add to local costs and taxes.

What's needed are some basic changes to the system, such as: Clarify accountability of the Wake BOE to control both revenues and expenditures, i.e., give the BOE the authority to set the tax rate for schools, which is common in most of the country; Connect growth and school infrastructure through Adequate Public Facility Ordinances and impact fees. Impact fees are used by hundreds of municipalities across the country. They allow property taxes to be focused more tightly on education. All the while the BOE needs to focus on advancing academics (e.g. trade off the cost of bells-and whistles in school construction for more resources to advance education), addressing local inequalities and effectively communicating both restraints and accomplishments. Wake County will grow again. This time we need to be ready for it.

Stan Norwalk, Wake County Commissioner

[johnshaw]

Hell no - they should ALL be offered in at least one section at EVERY high school. But that would require spending money. And you just elected the people who think we already spend too MUCH educating our kids. I agree. They should be offered in all schools. But one thing I don't like about the people that were just elected is their attitude about spending money. Good education cost money, but we have been spending less than the NC average per student and far less than the US average per student.


I know someone who took advanced chemistry in a non-magnet with seven other kids. In a science magnet the class would be full. In both cases the cost of the teacher would be about the same.
That's eight students in a class. Isn't that pretty close to a full class for advanced chemistry (I assume with a lab in the class room)?

[AnnSchleiss]

I have been told by several teachers in the high schools in western Cary that they had enough students to offer more AP courses with full classes (whatever number that is), but were told that they could not offer the courses – they were given at Enloe and would not be given elsewhere. I, and others, have talked to present school board members about AP courses in Cary. I have been specifically told by outgoing school board members and by the “status quo” candidates that to offer more AP courses in Cary would reduce the number of students going to Enloe, therefore it would not happen.

If, for a particular course, there are too few students in one high school, that course should be given in one centrally located school and other students would have the option of transferring to that school.



BTW, most of the funding for AP courses comes from the WBOC whereas the funding for the core curriculum comes from the NCGA.
Stan, since you are a County Commissioner, would you support increased spending (and yes, taxes) to support more AP courses in more high schools?


I still think that it is time that that we have a Western Wake School System, independent of the rest of Wake County. That school system should have the same revenue authority that systems in almost all other states have. They are, after all, responsible to both parents and tax payers.

[Don]

What's needed are some basic changes to the system, such as: Clarify accountability of the Wake BOE to control both revenues and expenditures, i.e., give the BOE the authority to set the tax rate for schools, which is common in most of the country; Connect growth and school infrastructure through Adequate Public Facility Ordinances and impact fees. Impact fees are used by hundreds of municipalities across the country. They allow property taxes to be focused more tightly on education. All the while the BOE needs to focus on advancing academics (e.g. trade off the cost of bells-and whistles in school construction for more resources to advance education), addressing local inequalities and effectively communicating both restraints and accomplishments. Wake County will grow again. This time we need to be ready for it.

Stan Norwalk, Wake County Commissioner

Unlike Wake County munis, doesn't Wake County have legislative authority to levy schools impact fees? What are you waiting for, Stan?

[StanN]

Don,

It's simple, 4+3=7 and I don't have four votes.

Why not ask the Commissioner who represents most of Cary, Tony Gurley, why he doesn't support an APFO-impact fee similar to the one Cary uses for roads? Or like an a impact fee being used in Wake Forest for town buildings, or like the APFO-school impact fee used in Franklin, Union, Cabarrus and several other counties.

Those who want to ask the other Commissioners that question should send an e-mail to commissioners@co.wake.nc.us

StanN

[StanN]

That's eight students in a class. Isn't that pretty close to a full class for advanced chemistry (I assume with a lab in the class room)?

I don't know if they have labs in class...so make it AP math or German. Either way, specialized courses are more expensive than core courses unless they are placed in a school with a specialized program that attracts kids from a wide area. The lower the population density, i.e. the more sprawled, the community is, the larger the area that specialized school has to serve to efficiently deliver its specialized service. And I am not even considering the higher cost and limited pool of teachers qualified to lead such courses.

And when you decide to locate a specialized school, wouldn't you want it near the center of the County, e.g. SE Raleigh, rather than at the edges of the County, e.g. Cary? Or would you offer the classes only in the non-centrally located, middle class neighborhoods in the County like Cary, which would tend to exclude lower income kids whose parents have neither the wheels or the time to car pool them there.

Of course you could do what is popular with parents...but then you ultimately have to get the WBOC to raise taxes on all stakeholders, including the 70% who are not parents. Somehow I don't think that would be popular.

I wonder what CMS is going to do with their widespread pseudo-magnets now that the CM BOC has axed $39M out of the education budget?

StanN

[StanN]

from http://www.ncforum.org/

Charlotte Forum Focuses on Ensuring Quality

In Hard-to-Staff Schools

Earlier this week the Charlotte League of Women Voters, and the UNC-Charlotte College of Education co-sponsored a forum called “Keeping Teachers Teaching: Ensuring Quality and Stability in All Schools.” Since returning to a neighborhood school student assignment process, Charlotte has faced greater and greater challenges in attracting and keeping high quality teachers in its low-performing inner-city schools.

Eric Hirsch, Director of Special Projects for the New Teacher Center, began the program by sharing the responses of teachers in Charlotte on the most recent working conditions survey. Over two-thirds of Charlotte’s teachers responded to the survey and the results pinpointed school-by-school problem areas that, if addressed, could improve teacher retention rates over time. Frequent problems that surfaced included teachers feeling that they were not given adequate support by school principals and findings that the system’s mentoring program was not providing adequate support to new teachers.

The Forum’s Executive Director, John Dornan followed with examples of schools that were using innovative approaches to build a sense of community that creates a climate in which teachers want to remain. Dr. May Lynne Calhoun, Dean of UNC Charlotte’s School of Education and Dr. Cathy Hammond, the Principal of Thomasboro Elementary School, described new approaches being promoted through the university and the school system. In Charlotte, as elsewhere, recruitment and retention problems are very uneven throughout the system. Schools in more affluent, middle-class neighborhoods tend to have few recruitment problems and higher retention rates while schools serving low-income, minority students find recruitment and retention are major challenges.

[johnshaw]

That's eight students in a class. Isn't that pretty close to a full class for advanced chemistry (I assume with a lab in the class room)?I don't know if they have labs in class...so make it AP math or German. Either way, specialized courses are more expensive than core courses unless they are placed in a school with a specialized program that attracts kids from a wide area. The lower the population density, i.e. the more sprawled, the community is, the larger the area that specialized school has to serve to efficiently deliver its specialized service. And I am not even considering the higher cost and limited pool of teachers qualified to lead such courses.

And when you decide to locate a specialized school, wouldn't you want it near the center of the County, e.g. SE Raleigh, rather than at the edges of the County, e.g. Cary? Or would you offer the classes only in the non-centrally located, middle class neighborhoods in the County like Cary, which would tend to exclude lower income kids whose parents have neither the wheels or the time to car pool them there.

Of course you could do what is popular with parents...but then you ultimately have to get the WBOC to raise taxes on all stakeholders, including the 70% who are not parents. Somehow I don't think that would be popular.

I wonder what CMS is going to do with their widespread pseudo-magnets now that the CM BOC has axed $39M out of the education budget?

StanN

Stan
If there are enough students at one of the Cary high schools to add an AP course, would you support it? If there are enough students at the Western Wake schools combined to support AP classes that no individual school could offer, would you support offering them at one school, allowing other students to attend? I am not suggesting eliminating the ITB magnets, just adding programs in Western Wake schools.

I know that it would cost money, and I am one of those empty nesters whose kids are now out of college. However, I know that a good education is important for the community, and costs money.

I know that you are only one of the commissioners, but would you vote to support this proposal.

[StanN]

John,

I have always supported advancing K-12 education and will continue to do so.

A solidly thought out plan that would provide for advancing education among all students in the County would have my support. I would not accept a plan that traded increased support in WW for less support elsewhere.

Please understand that "education" does not mean unnecessary school construction, e.g. to facilitate new school construction when there are empty seats down the road. I define "education" as the operating costs within public schools.

With minor exceptions, the county's contribution is made as a block grant and the BOE determines its use. It would take extra-ordinary bad decisions by the BOE to change my mind, but it would be possible that I would do so.

I have consistently advocated for reducing the cost per seat and trading that for increased funds for education..no takers, no support.

I fought for increased funds for education in this years budget and was voted down 6 to 1. I didn't hear a single peep from anyone on this board or in WW. I will do so again in next years budget and hope for greater support.

I have stated my position on APFO's-impact fees. There is no groundswell from the public needed to overcome the opposition of the WBOC and the special interests.

I have consistently advocated against misguided priorities that siphon off funds from education. E.g. an un-needed, air-conditioned animal shelter when the Wake SPCA could have done the job (lost 6-1); excessive, high cost construction of a palatial, combined courthouse - new administrative headquarters that will cost $500/ SF (Comparable cost of a new high school = $200/SF). Unable to stop the un-needed office facilities, I have recently advocated for a long range plans to minimize the capital tied up in county office buildings (lost 3-3) so that we could put more money into education, public health and mental health. Note that this already has siphoned off money from education and other services even when growth and the demand for some services has sharply increased. No one on this board cared or commented.

Overall, I believe that there is far too much emphasis on construction vis-a-vis services. The balance, particularly in an economic tsunami, is wrong.

Thanks for your question. Have I answered it?

BTW, there are AP courses available to WW students but their number is declining..as are the resources for needy kids. Its a shame.

StanN

[johnshaw]

Yes, Stan, you answered by question. I wish that the others on the BOC were as willing to support education.

John

[AnnSchleiss]

Stan,
I have been told by two different teachers at Green Hope high school that, while planning the curricular for this school year, they had enough students to make up an AP course. These students were qualified to be taking it and were attending their base school due to the distance to Enloe. Having the AP course would have removed a section of the non-AP course, so it would not have required hiring another teacher or building another class room. The teachers were told that they could not offer the AP Course because it would reduce the incentive to transfer to Enloe.

So the students stayed at GHHS but took the non-AP version of the course.

Stan, was it right to deny these students the ability to take the AP course in their "base" school?

[StanN]

The only valid reasons I could see not to offer the course - given a full class - would be the precedent it set or if they didn't have a teacher qualified to give the course. I imagine that with our non-competitive pay schedule it is difficult to attract many teachers who are qualified to teach a highly specialized AP courses.

I'll speculate that the central office assigns such teachers to the magnet schools and once they are there, they are reluctant to move.

But I really do not have the facts.

Considering both the state and county per pupil cuts - remember WCPSS ranks 86th among the State's school districts in funding education. It's tough getting enough qualified , specialized teachers.
Regardless of diversity, it makes sense having them in a centralized location rather than dispersed throughout the County.

This gets to be more and more of a problem as our land use and tax regulations encourage sprawl and Wakes population is moving out to the outer edges of the county

Please send an e-mail to my home address stann2372@att.net. I'd like to explore this further but cannot open your private message. I have a friend who is a real expert on magnet schools.

StanN

[johnshaw]

This gets to be more and more of a problem as our land use and tax regulations encourage sprawl and Wakes population is moving out to the outer edges of the county

Stan,

What land use and tax regulations encourage sprawl? - as opposed to merely allowing sprawl to occur.

One of the many bad effects of sprawl is the effect on education and the use of centralized courses. The drive from the outer fringes of the county to Enloe can take over a 45 minutes. Not only is there a greater distance from the outer ring of development, but there is more traffic and slower travel times, compared to when the population was less than today.

John

[StanN]

I'll preface the following by saying its just a list - in many cases extremely difficult or even impossible to change. In many cases it requires collaboration between local governments - again difficult to achieve. But somebody other than Triangle J ought to be thinking about it

Sprawl Promoters

Emphasis on Bus transit instead of rail transit.

Lack of concurrency (infrastructure and growth linked together).

Lack of impact fees in unincorporated areas contrasts with transportation impact fees in Raleigh and Cary.

Low utility hook-up fees in outlying muni's as an incentive for growth, e.g. FV compared to Holly Springs. No fees or strict requirements for a finite groundwater supply and conservation measures (e.g. cisterns and conservation rates) for utilities and developments in the unincorporated areas.

Double taxation of city residents to pay for services in unincorporated area.

Lack or regional or county wide land use plan to encourage new development near existing road infrastructure and the center of the region (CORE).

The inner belt and especially the outer belt.

Political resistance to density, anywhere, including rail stations.

Resistance to increasing gasoline taxes and low gas prices after adjusting for inflation.

The strength of the sprawl lobby.

We take all of the above as "normal" and don't even think about the consequences. We have forgotten basic geometry, pi R squared..as the distance from the work center goes up (and gets urbanized) the area that has to be served with roads goes up with the square of the distance. Is it any wonder the county is > $10B behind in road construction and need a multi-billion $ transit system.

Is it any wonder we can't find sites for school construction that aren't beleaguered with associated road problems? Oh - of course that's all do to bad planning by the BOE.

[johnshaw]

I started a new thread under local issues about sprawl, since that is off the topic of schools. (although related).