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Thread: Sign, sign everywhere a sign except at Carpenter Farm Supply

  1. #21
    DarylB Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dharma
    "......we're looked at as if we're a local "Daryl" and lose all credibility.
    Not a nice way to speak about a fine restaurant!

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dharma
    In Raleigh they put up an $8 million pedestrian bridge that only services a very small group of people (mostly upper class).

    We can go to planning meetings and try to express our views but since the Commission is loaded with developers...it's a waste of time and effort. Look at how Mike Joyce got railroaded in the Diamante incident.

    We can go stamp our feet and scream at them but after awhile, we're looked at as if we're a local "Daryl" and lose all credibility.
    $8 million for that pedestrian bridge over 440?

    I agree it is a waste of time and effort to go to the government. You have to take the case straight to the voters, bypassing the entrenched bureaucrats. As a newbie here, (but in Cary for >15 years) let me say that I am in favor of property rights, free markets, and small government, so I don't dislike businessmen or developers, except when they get politicians to give them perks the rest of us can't have (like eminent domain for big projects, tax credits, and huge wasteful spending contracts to put up dynamic message signs and pedestrian bridges). I have mentioned my penchant for liberty and my disdain for central planning to several council members. They were polite in letting me see the effort it took them to keep their eyes from rolling. (To one's credit, when I complained about losing more than half-a-million dollars per year on C-Tran, he told me, humorously, that they had to tint the windows on the C-Tran buses so everyone wouldn't see how empty they are.)

    The only other attempt I've made to influence town government directly was a questionnaire handed to me at City Hall about what types of businesses I would like to see in downtown Cary. After first writing that government shouldn't have anything to do with deciding what businesses locate there, I added that it would be nice to have an ABC store and a shooting range.

    Follow the money, wrote Mr. Goldman. The person or company that got the biggest chunk of the sign contract money was most likely the same person or company that spearheaded the project from its very beginnings. After all, the city didn't just spend twelve million dollars on a whim. Someone had a specific idea for a spending project, and that person took his idea to people with power.

  3. #23
    DarylB Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArtVandalay
    Run for office, if you're inclined, and use the sign-spending as a key issue. Those people in power have no idea what our tax money is really worth.
    I'm on the November ballot, for Wake's Soil and Water board... it's an issue for which I have both background and a keen interest as well. Thanks

  4. #24
    DarylB Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArtVandalay
    .... After first writing that government shouldn't have anything to do with deciding what businesses locate there, I added that it would be nice to have an ABC store and a shooting range.

    ......
    Could we interest them in an ABC store that includes a shooting range?.... now THERE's a government need! Kinda like chainsaws and Budweiser!!!

  5. #25
    Cathy Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ArtVandalay
    Quote Originally Posted by Dharma
    In Raleigh they put up an $8 million pedestrian bridge that only services a very small group of people (mostly upper class).

    We can go to planning meetings and try to express our views but since the Commission is loaded with developers...it's a waste of time and effort. Look at how Mike Joyce got railroaded in the Diamante incident.

    We can go stamp our feet and scream at them but after awhile, we're looked at as if we're a local "Daryl" and lose all credibility.
    $8 million for that pedestrian bridge over 440?

    I agree it is a waste of time and effort to go to the government. You have to take the case straight to the voters, bypassing the entrenched bureaucrats. As a newbie here, (but in Cary for >15 years) let me say that I am in favor of property rights, free markets, and small government, so I don't dislike businessmen or developers, except when they get politicians to give them perks the rest of us can't have (like eminent domain for big projects, tax credits, and huge wasteful spending contracts to put up dynamic message signs and pedestrian bridges). I have mentioned my penchant for liberty and my disdain for central planning to several council members. They were polite in letting me see the effort it took them to keep their eyes from rolling. (To one's credit, when I complained about losing more than half-a-million dollars per year on C-Tran, he told me, humorously, that they had to tint the windows on the C-Tran buses so everyone wouldn't see how empty they are.)

    The only other attempt I've made to influence town government directly was a questionnaire handed to me at City Hall about what types of businesses I would like to see in downtown Cary. After first writing that government shouldn't have anything to do with deciding what businesses locate there, I added that it would be nice to have an ABC store and a shooting range.

    Follow the money, wrote Mr. Goldman. The person or company that got the biggest chunk of the sign contract money was most likely the same person or company that spearheaded the project from its very beginnings. After all, the city didn't just spend twelve million dollars on a whim. Someone had a specific idea for a spending project, and that person took his idea to people with power.
    GLORY HALLELUIAH!
    There ARE other people around here that can see the forest for the trees!

    I like the way you think Art!

    Contradiction and hypocrisy is what you get a lot of in the world of land use planning these days. They are so entrenched in an anti-individual rights ideology that they can't even recognize their contradictions anymore. They think they are so Madison Avenue pitching their BS, that they are unassailable.
    They have truly convinced themselves that you and I are too dumb to notice.
    And the central planners think Thomas Jefferson's ideas are obsolete.

    Don't think that you are alone in eliciting that "eye roll" reaction.

    Cathy

  6. #26

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    This is from the Town O' Cary website:

    "The signs are part of the Town’s computerized traffic signal project that once complete late this summer will include 80 miles of new fiber optic cable (integrated with existing signal software), 23 closed circuit TV cameras at key intersections, approximately 130 state-of-the-art traffic signal controller devices, and traffic information integration with the Town’s Web site and cable access channel, Cary TV 11. "

    The person that directed me to this press release told me the twelve million dollars is for the whole project, not just the "Dynamic Message Signs." So, maybe I don't feel QUITE so ripped off now.

    Oh, and Thanks, Cathy. I like the way you think, too!

  7. #27
    Brent's Avatar
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    Well said, Art & Cathy.

    It is correct that the $12 million is for the entire computerized traffic control system, which is a useful and cost-effective addition to the infrastructure (although its implementation is questionable...I understand that, at its heart, it currently still relies and will rely on a human watching TV screens...but that's another topic).

    As for these signs, (1) I expect that soon, we will hear from staff just how much of the $12 million was spent on the signs themselves; and (2) just what are they adding to the system? Are they going to say "Traffic jam ahead"? That's a big help. There's always a traffic jam ahead in Cary. But wait! Maybe they'll help out by saying "Traffic jam ahead. Suggested alternate routes: NONE".

    And besides being a waste of money, the arrogant hypicrisy of government officials who believe it is OK to exempt themselves from their own laws is detestable. If they're hell-bent on tearing down the Carpenter Farm Supply sign, then someone ought to identify the staff member(s) responsible for these butt-ugly government pole signs, have them stand next to the signs for a week, personally apologizing to motorists who go by, and then have these signs torn down as well. :P

    Maybe we could sell them to to Las Vegas.
    - Brent Miller

    "The job of a citizen is to keep his mouth open" -- Gunter Grass

  8. #28
    Brent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhyatt
    I guess it takes more neurons than available to have figured out in advance that a simple statement like "the pole signs in Carpenter and South Hills have some history behind them so we are going to extend the removal deadline 24 months while we review the community impact"
    This is pretty much precisely what I suggested (or at least part of what I suggested, and I offered some detail to staff and council). Although Cary's planning director agreed to run my ideas by the town's consultant (yes, that's right...we have a consultant for this), he didn't indicate whether he would pursue any of the ideas I offered to change the sign ordinance, and no one stepped forward to give the CFS or other signs any reprieve while this re-evaluation occurred. In other words, they'll be happy to reconsider the laws governing historic pole signs once all of those pole signs have been torn down. Nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by dhyatt
    or "Cary's new information signs, as part of our ongoing efforts to improve traffic flow throughout the town, will warn drivers of accidents and traffic problems, allowing them to find alternate routes and saving them gas"
    They've sort of already said this, although not as well as you did in your 30-seconds-of-thought version. One problem with this is that, because Cary has fallen so far behind in infrastructure, there are no good alternate routes (they're all jammed up, still waiting for Mayor Chamber O'Commerce to "unclog Cary's crowded streets"). And the main problem is that if they can't find a way to deliver this "public service" to the public in a way that complies with the law that applies to everyone else, then they should not do it or start over.

    Quote Originally Posted by dhyatt
    Their current "spin doctor" seems to be operating from a purely adversarial position towards the public. CTC should know that if staff continues with its "us vs. them" mentality, everyone loses - including them at the next election.
    Right now, the problem is that the only parties who do NOT lose in this situation are the staff members causing the problems. In the absence of adult supervision from the CTC, this won't change. In this particular case, unless someone is called on the carpet and has to answer for the pole sign debacle, nothing will change in the future.

    And as long as this continues, it will continue to breed the "us vs. them" mentality, complete with the arrogant hypocrisy that results from not having the laws apply to you. :P
    - Brent Miller

    "The job of a citizen is to keep his mouth open" -- Gunter Grass

  9. #29
    Cathy Guest

    Default I think it's relevant.....

    Quote Originally Posted by ADC News Blog
    Sunday, July 16, 2006
    Yes, now anybody can create their very own Smart Growth utopia ...


    ... East German-style! Without having to destroy existing neighborhoods.


    The fine folks at Faltplatte.de (most pages can be viewed in English) have re-created some of the Stalinist "compact" (as in high-density) residential and institutional architecture of the former German Democratic Republic (also known as East Germany) in cardboard models - just perfect for that Smart Growth design charette.

    If you visit the site, it may take a moment for the cool animation of massive apartment blocks being erected to complete - but it's worth it.

    Never mind that the residents of East Germany were not allowed to leave that nation, thanks to a very effective urban growth boundary or UGB (otherwise known as the Berlin Wall and the fortified border between East and West Germany). Never mind that as soon as this UGB was breached in 1989, East Germany was doomed.

    Eastern European tram models and models of vile little Trabant and Wartburg sedans not included.

    See also LEIPZIG-HALLE: NEARLY RECOVERED FROM SOCIALISM - Halle-Neustadt: Decrepit Commuter Rail Station Preserves Socialist Past (Adobe Acrobat .pdf, 251 KB), and Vanishing Automobile update #53: Smart Growth and the Ideal City.


    # posted by C. P. Zilliacus @ 5:18 AM
    ADC NEWS BLOG

  10. #30
    d4vendel's Avatar
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    Brent,

    I may be a little off on the numbers (trying to do this from memory), but Susan Moran called in to the Bill LuMaye show on Friday afternoon after someone called in about the "$12M" signs. The total cost of the signs was about $40K - $45K each.

    She also stated the the "Welcome to Cary" message was up while they were testing the system that controls the signs as it seemed better than "This is a test."

    I think the traffic control system will be a help, but I am not sure how valuable the signs are. If you are from here, you already know how to get around congestion. If you are visiting, you are not going to know where the Town is trying to send you.

    Susan also mentioned that, in the future, people will be able to get updates sent to their cell phones / PDAs. When a presentaion on the proposed traffice system was presented to the ISAB years ago, I was very much opposed to that addition. I sill am. The last thing I want is people trying to read their Blackberry while trying to naviagate traffic. Look out the windshield - not at you lap!

    - David F.

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