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Thread: Cary's response re CP email

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    Default Cary's response re CP email

    Now that it's been a week, I thought I'd share the results of last weeks email campaign. Cary Politics sent out over 2500 emails and we have another list of about a thousand that is still being purged of bad email addresses and checked for duplicates. If you have a list of Cary (or CARY ETJ) emails that you think might be interested in reading/joining/learning about Cary Politics, please send it to us.

    You will find below a record of emails between the town and 10 or residents. These emails show that Cary's response was way overblown and in many ways deceitful.
    <hr>
    <hr>
    09/29/2006 11:34 AM
    From: "Karen Mills" <kamills@nc.rr.com>
    To <susan.moran@townofcary.org>
    cc

    Subject: email list

    Susan -
    I got an email from Cary politics. Did they request our email list?

    Karen
    <hr>
    09/29/2006 11:51 AM
    From: <susan.moran@townofcary.org>
    To: "Karen Mills" <kamills@nc.rr.com>

    Subject: Re: email list

    Brent Miller did.
    <hr>
    09/29/2006 12:24:19 PM
    From: susan.moran@townofcary.org
    To: Bill.Coleman@TownofCary.org

    Subject: Fw: Cary Town Council

    They used our EMLS for their distribution of this.
    <hr>
    09/29/2006 12:35 PM
    From: Teri.Peralta@townofcary.org
    To: susan.moran@townofcary.org

    I received this also. This is the second one I received, to which I replied "Remove" to be removed from their distribution list.
    <hr>
    The following was sent out prior to receiving a single comment from the public, much less a complaint. It's unknown, though I intend to ask, whether Susan received 'guidance' to send this note. She implies a) public complaints had been received, they had not, b) that the Cary Politics email pushed a political agenda, it did not, and c) that there would be a "backlash". The backlash they hoped for did not occur. Subsequent emails to the town (seen further down) show quite the opposite.
    <hr>
    09/29/2006 12:54:39 PM
    From: susan.moran@townofcary.org
    To: Teri.Peralta@townofcary.org

    Subject: (blank)

    Dean Town of Cary Mailing List Subscribers:

    Regarding your questions and concerns about receiving unsolicited email from Cary Politics, we wanted to let you know that groups such as this can and do under State law request copies of local government databases, including ours. It has only happened a few times in Cary, usually during campaigns season and/or in an effort to push a political agenda.

    Unfortunately, we have no control over what such groups do with these lists since the information is public record. However, the backlash that typically comes to these groups from subscribers does seem to limit the frequency of such requests.

    We regret the inconvenience to you and hope that despite their intrusion you will continue to subscribe to the Town of Cary's electronic mailing list in light of the important information we provide.

    Susan Moran, APR
    Town of Cary Public Information Officer.
    <hr>
    09/29/2006 01:32 PM
    From: "Don Frantz" <frantzautomotive@-------------->
    To: "Susan Moran" <Susan.Moran@TownofCary.org>

    Subject: email

    Good day Susan,
    I received your email in regards to the email CaryPolitics sent out and wanted to ask a question. Normally when I get an email from the town it says it's from townofcary@townofcary.org or something like that. But your email had no address whatsoever. I didn't know if this was intentional or a glitch of some kind. Just wanted to let you know.

    Take care,
    Don Frantz
    <hr>
    09/29/2006 01:56 PM
    From: "Commiskey, Kelly T (Kelly)" <kelly.commiskey@------------------->
    To: susan.moran@townofcary.org

    Subject: FW: Unsolicited e-mail from Cary Politics

    Hey Thought I would sent you a heads up

    When your email came in with apache@lx1.media3.net as the from it went right into my junk email box. Not sure that was intended effect, but just an FYI.

    Kelly
    <hr>
    09/29/2006 03:20 PM (This email shows how the town's over reaction was the only thing that caused any problems)
    From: "Don Curry" <currydon@------------->
    To: susan.moran@townofcary.org
    cc

    Subject: RE: Unsolicited e-mail from Cary Politics

    Ms Moran,
    I didn't express a concern nor ask a question regarding this topic. If you received an email that appeared to come from me, please send it to me so I can try to track down the sender. In this age of identity theft, your email is a cause of great concern.

    Thanks in advance,
    Don
    DONALD L. CURRY, Lt Col, USAF (Ret)
    <hr>
    09/29/2006 04:12:19 PM (No surprise to me where the only "complaint" came from.
    From: Susan.Moran@TownofCary.org
    To: Chris.Simpson@TownofCary.org
    cc

    Subject: Fw: Cary Town Council

    Chris, this is what Ken Vranna is talking about. I have sent a note to all EMLS users to explain and will send it to you as well.
    <hr>
    09/29/2006 03:43 PM
    ----- Forwarded by Chris Simpson/Cary on 10/05/2006 04:30 PM -----
    From: "Jack Smith" <jack.smith@townofcary.org>
    To: <Chris.Simpson@townofcary.org>
    cc
    "ToC file" <sue.rowland@townofcary.org>

    Subject FW: (no subject)

    Chris,
    Will you check into this and, if replying, 'cc' Council.............Jack

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Ken Vrana [mailto:kvrana@caitlinproductions.com]
    Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 3:35 PM
    To: council@townofcary.org; smoran@townofcary.org; Ernie
    Subject: (no subject)

    What's with Don Hyatt accessing the Town of Cary's Mailing List and using it to grow his website? I thought that was illegal.

    Ken
    <hr>
    09/29/2006 4:21 PM (This email shows that the town was not in fact responding to citizens when they sent out their "response".)
    From: susan.moran@townofcary.org
    To: "Don Curry" <currydon@------------->
    cc

    Subject: RE: Unsolicited e-mail from Cary Politics

    Sorry for any confusion, Don. I did not hear from you specifically; my email was sent to all subscribers.
    <hr>
    09/29/2006 04:51 PM
    From: "Don Curry" <currydon@------------->
    To: susan.moran@townofcary.org
    cc

    Subject: RE: Unsolicited e-mail from Cary Politics

    I wondered if that was the case, but when I saw only my name on the "TO" line, instead of something like "All Subscribers," I thought I'd better pursue it.

    Thanks,
    Don (Curry)
    <hr>
    09/29/2006 04:17 PM
    From: susan.moran@townofcary.org
    To: "Commiskey, Kelly T (Kelly)" <kelly.commiskey@------------------->
    cc Teri.Peralta@townofcary.org

    Subject Re: FW: Unsolicited e-mail from Cary Politics

    Thanks.
    There was a glitch. I'll have Teri resend correctly.
    <hr>
    09/29/2006 04:18 PM
    From: susan.moran@townofcary.org
    To: "Don Frantz" <frantzautomotive@hotmail.com>
    cc Teri.Peralta@townofcary.org

    Subject: Re: email

    Hi Don.
    There was a system glitch; Teri is resending.
    Thanks for letting me know.
    <hr>
    09/29/2006 04:31:55 PM
    From: susan.moran@townofcary.org
    To: Town Council
    cc Department Directors

    Subject: CARY POLITICS EMAIL

    Council:
    The following email was sent to all subscribers to our electronic mailing list service in response to Cary Politics' use of our list.

    Dean Town of Cary Mailing List Subscribers:

    Regarding your questions and concerns about receiving unsolicited email from Cary Politics, we wanted to let you know that groups such as this can and do under State law request copies of local government databases, including ours. It has only happened a few times in Cary, usually during campaigns season and/or in an effort to push a political agenda.

    Unfortunately, we have no control over what such groups do with these lists since the information is public record. However, the backlash that typically comes to these groups from subscribers does seem to limit the frequency of such requests.

    We regret the inconvenience to you and hope that despite their intrusion you will continue to subscribe to the Town of Cary's electronic mailing list in light of the important information we provide.
    <hr>
    09/29/2006 05:07 PM
    From: john barbara <venturecrew212@------------>
    To: townofcary@townofcary.org
    cc: council@townofcary.org, Don Hyatt <dhyatt@carypolitics.org>

    Subject: Re: Unsolicited E-mail from Cary Politics

    Ms Moran,

    In your haste to reply you evidently forgot to check your message for grammar and spelling errors.

    For an ordinary Joe Merlot, no big deal.

    For the City of Cary's Minister of Information, it's pretty sad.

    "Intrusion"? Into public records? Really? Odd. I thought those records were "public", ie, not yours,
    but ours.

    Freudian slip perhaps?

    John Barbara
    Cary, NC
    <hr>
    10/02/2006 09:16 AM
    From: susan.moran@townofcary.org
    To: john barbara <venturecrew212@------------->
    cc Teri.Peralta@townofcary.org

    Subject: Re: Unsolicited E-mail from Cary Politics

    Mr. Barbara:
    We regret that our proofing practices did not meet our high expectations and typical outcomes for the email. Thank you for following up.
    <hr>
    10/02/2006 11:24 AM
    From: john barbara <venturecrew212@------------->
    To: susan.moran@townofcary.org
    cc Teri.Peralta@townofcary.org, Brent Miller <brent@-------------->, Don Hyatt <dhyatt@carypolitics.org>

    Subject: Re: Unsolicited E-mail from Cary Politics

    Ms Moran,

    Since I am paying for your 'services' and you are the Public Information Officer, I don't believe it is asking too much for you employ proper grammar and spelling in your attempts at communication with the public.

    You are quite welcome.

    John Barbara

    <hr>
    The following is the first non-aligned citizen to respond.
    <hr>
    09/29/2006 05:25 PM (in response to towns 'response')
    From: Jody Hewell <jhewell@----------->
    To: townofcary@townofcary.org
    cc

    Subject: Re: Unsolicited E-mail from Cary Politics

    Susan

    Doesn't matter to me. Some people are just too sensitive when it comes to spam. All they have to do is hit "delete". I myself appreciate the information.

    J Hewell
    Cary NC
    <hr>
    09/29/2006 05:42 PM (Note no complaint and a lack of clarity as to which mailing list the writer is referring to)
    From: SBARBIERI@---------------
    To: townofcary@townofcary.org
    cc

    Subject: Re: Unsolicited E-mail from Cary Politics

    How do you unsubscribe to the mailing list?
    Thanks,
    Steve
    <hr>
    09/29/2006 05:56 PM ( Once again no complaint)
    From: <smith_dl@-------------->
    To: <townofcary@townofcary.org>
    cc

    Subject: Re: Unsolicited E-mail from Cary Politics

    Thank you for your e-mail. I fullly understand the town's situation. The delete button is easy to reach, if I want it.

    Douglas Smith
    <hr>
    09/29/2006 08:52 PM (Far from a complaint, this writer appears to support my effort)
    From: Rick Weiss <ugweiss@------------>
    To: townofcary@townofcary.org
    cc

    Subject: Re: Unsolicited E-mail from Cary Politics

    I personally have no questions or concerns ... although I don't personally like unsolicited e-mails ... I would not endorse supressing enthusiastic citizens from expressing themselves ... especially if they want to better our community ... although I do not know if I agree with their agenda ...

    Rick Weiss
    <hr>
    09/29/2006 09:45 PM (A simple 'remove' but to which list is it referring?)
    From: kilian <mail@-------------->
    To: townofcary@townofcary.org
    cc

    Subject: remove
    <hr>
    09/30/2006 12:46 AM (This email shows the town causing a potential problem and calls into question what 'list' Cary Politics actually used)
    From: roberthh@-----------
    To: <townofcary@townofcary.org>
    cc

    Subject: RE: Unsolicited E-mail from Cary Politics

    I have not received any unsolicited e-mails from Cary politics. I don't understand why you sent this message to me. I have not asked a question or voiced a concern about this.

    ROBERT HINES
    <hr>
    09/28/2006 05:57 PM (My public records request)
    From: Don Hyatt <dhyatt@carypolitics.org>
    To: susan.moran@townofcary.org
    cc

    Subject: re: Unsolicited E-mail from Cary Politics

    Ms. Moran,
    Please consider this a formal request under NC's Public Records law for any and all email correspondence, to or from the Town of Cary, regarding the alleged use by Cary Politics of the Town's email subscription list. This request covers all email on the topic starting at 10pm Thursday September 28th, 2006 through 12am Tuesday October 3rd, 2006.

    Regards,
    Don Hyatt
    <hr>
    10/02/2006 08:16 AM
    From: "Brent A. Miller" <brent@---------------->
    To: susan.moran@townofcary.org
    cc: Bill.Coleman@townofcary.org

    Subject: Fwd: Unsolicited E-mail from Cary Politics

    Ms. Moran,

    I do not consider it "unfortunate" that public records are made available to anyone in the public who asks for them. These records belong to the public, not to the Town government. The Town makes it abundantly clear that these are public records when people sign up for the e-mail distribution list.

    In this particular case, I experienced no "inconvenience" and did not consider the e-mail I received from carypolitics.org to be an "intrusion". I certainly will continue to subscribe to the town's e-mail list.

    I am disappointed in the negative tone of your e-mail below. It seems that you could have just stated the facts about the e-mail list being public record.

    Instead, it appears that you are trying to "push [an] agenda". I find that to be "unfortunate" and an "intrusion".

    - Brent Miller
    <hr>
    10/02/2006 09:03 AM (Note Ms. Moran's rather curt reply taking into account the town didn't receive any complaints AND her statement "used by those outside the Town" when what she really meant was "outside of Town Hall". Last time I checked, I was still a Cary citizen.)
    From: Susan.Moran@TownofCary.org [mailto:Susan.Moran@TownofCary.org]
    To: brent@------------------
    Cc: Bill.Coleman@TownofCary.org

    Subject: Re: Fwd: Unsolicited E-mail from Cary Politics

    Mr. Miller:
    Were you ever to be on the receiving end of complaints from citizens who do object to receiving unsolicited email, your opinion on this matter may be different. As you are not responsible for addressing these concerns and given that you are one of those who requested the list for purposes other than its intent, I am not surprised by your remarks. Whenever the list is used by those outside the Town, we will continue to appropriately notify subscribers.
    <hr>
    10/03/2006 06:54 AM
    From: brent@-----------------
    To: susan.moran@townofcary.org
    cc

    Subject: Fwd: Unsolicited E-mail from Cary Politics

    Ms. Moran,

    I doubt that my opinion that public records need to be made widely available to the public would ever change, and it wouldn't matter, because this is codified quite nicely in NC statutes.

    In fact, those statutes state that the purpose of a public records request need not be disclosed. Because I have elected not to send any e-mail to the public record e-mail list that I requested and received, it is unclear to me how you have determined the purpose of my request, although as already established, NC law makes that no consideration of yours anyway.

    In any case, it seems to me that the purpose of the town's e-mail distribution list is to inform citizens. The town government does not have a monopoly on that function. I believe I read somewhere that the town "will be open, ensure access, encourage involvement and be accountable to our citizens". Thank heavens for the public records law.

    If you truly feel compelled to notify subscribers whenever the public uses the public's own information (it's not your information, it's the public's information), then I believe that you ought to refrain from interjecting your own opinions into those notifications. Calling the exercise of a citizen's right an "intrusion" is not what I consider "enriching the lives of our citizens by creating an exceptional environment".
    <hr>
    10/03/2006 09:49 AM (Note the distinct lack of an answer to Brent's comments)
    From: Susan.Moran@TownofCary.org
    To: brent@------------------
    cc: Bill.Coleman@TownofCary.org

    Subject: Re: Fwd: Unsolicited E-mail from Cary Politics

    Your email has been received and opinions noted.

    Susan Moran
    Don Hyatt
    Webmaster
    CaryPolitics.org

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    So, we should conclude here that Susan was being...let's see if I can be somewhat charitable here..."disingenuous"? That she didn't tell the truth? That she misled people, insinuated things that weren't true and pushed her own agenda?

    Is that in the job description of Cary's Public Information Officer?
    - Brent Miller

    "The job of a citizen is to keep his mouth open" -- Gunter Grass

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    Brent,

    Isn't the more important question: Does Sue Moran's posture on public records just her own or does it reflect that of her bosses? i.e. Bill Coleman? The Mayor? The CTC?

    I don't have the answer, but if she wasn't reflecting their views how could she stay in office?

    IMHO you are shooting at the wrong target...but not sure I know the right one...perhaps all of the above?

    StanN

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    DarylB Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by StanN
    ".... but if she wasn't reflecting their views how could she stay in office....?"
    Stay in office? She's not elected to office Stan, she's an EMPLOYEE!!!! It has NEVER been permitted by her job description to reflect VIEWS at all, her job is simply to inform the public of the FACTS.

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    Darryl,

    I am well aware the The Public Information Officer is an employee...that has been appointed to her office and serves at the pleasure of the Town Manager, the Mayor and the CTC....who apparently think she must be doing a good job.

    I think that the TOC must do a better job of being responsive to its citizens, But I suggest that your aim is off when you focus on Susan Moran as the source of your frustration.

    StanN

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    Stan, you are correct; in this case, for several reasons, including the ones you note, the focus should indeed be on "all of the above". That is why I copied Bill Coleman on my e-mail correspondence with Susan.

    Bill hasn't replied. The silence speaks volumes.
    - Brent Miller

    "The job of a citizen is to keep his mouth open" -- Gunter Grass

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    Evidently my email elicited the following from Chris Sinclair's "Growth Matters" blog...

    Not Again

    We recently received this email (full of hype and no facts to back it up) from the Web master at Cary Politics.org—Don Hyatt. And we’re somewhat disappointed. After reading his populist sounding email, we don’t think that Don is too concerned about that which he espouses. Rather, we think Mr. Hyatt is positioning himself—and using his blog as the vehicle—for a run for Cary Town Council. Using some of the exact same language, he seems to be pulling a page from the Lang play book. Been there, done that comes to mind. We guess nasty habits die hard for some folks.

    But the real question we have about Hyatt’s blog is: Is Cary Politics a voice for the “people” of Cary—or just the mouthpiece for a slow growth/no growth special interest backed vocal minority? You decide.
    To which I responded thus...

    Geez… You’d think there would be a few comments from somebody after that. “Growth” fast, slow, or otherwise is not the issue at all and you know it. The issue is whether or not the infrastructure is keeping up and exactly how much are taxpayers willing to pay for it. Whether you and the HBA like to admit it or not - growth does bring problems as well as benefits. If the problems are properly managed (IMO - they’re not) the good will outweigh the bad. Otherwise, we wind up with overcrowded schools and roads, ridiculous ordinances, sewage spills and associated polluted water supplies, higher fees for basic services and chemical dumps in our own backyards. Growth “Matters” alright but growth at any cost is something I can do without.
    Don Hyatt
    Webmaster
    CaryPolitics.org

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    This is the comment I left over at the special-interest mouthpiece blog, GrowthMatters:

    Hey, Chris, unknot your shorts and take a chill pill!

    First, Mr. Hyatt runs a forum, not a blog. A blog is like GrowthMatters, where you get to opine all on your own without pesky counter opinions, other than perhaps in the form of comments. Mr. Hyatt runs a forum, where nearly 250 people are registered, and all of them, including a good representation of the growth-is-good-for-me crowd, are free to post their own opinions.

    Yes, you decide how a free-wheeling, free-speech forum could somehow be a mouthpiece for some sort of special interest (are the people in and around Cary a special interest now?). Is GrowthMatters just the mouthpiece for a make-the-taxpayers-pay-for-growth special interest-backed vocal minority? You decide.

    At carypolitics.org, Mr. Hyatt offers a link to GrowthMatters and many other Web sites of interest to involved citizens. Good for him!

    Second, that e-mail list isn't the "Town of Cary's own" -- it's a public record, and it belongs to the public. Not to the town.

    Finally, I hope Mr. Hyatt does run for Cary Town Council. I'm confident that he won't sell his soul to the growth-at-any-cost crowd, leaving us taxpayers holding the bag.
    - Brent Miller

    "The job of a citizen is to keep his mouth open" -- Gunter Grass

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